Off to the Valley

Melissa Kwan: You could be, spending
a couple months, a year in Canada

and the US and making connections
here and there, such that you can

build a business there, right?

You don't actually need to live in a
place in order to build a business there.

And I think that's, what's
beautiful about the generation,

the time that we live in now.

Prateek Panda: Hello everyone!

And welcome to Off to the Valley, a
podcast that brings to light incredible

stories of those who left the
familiarity of home for new horizons.

I'm your host, Prateek Panda, always
curious and eager to share these

journeys of courage and determination.

Today, we're thrilled to have
Melissa Kwan join our podcast.

Melissa is the Co-founder
and CEO of eWebinar.

eWebinar is a SaaS platform that lets
you deliver automated webinars for

sales demos onboarding and training.

She's a true embodiment of the principles
and spirit that we value highly.

And her journey shows the incredible
outcomes of stepping out of your

comfort zone and into new adventures.

Melissa, thank you so
much for joining the show.

Thanks so much for having me.

Tell us a bit about your background
you grew up in Hong Kong and Canada.

How did the move happen?

You moved at a younger age, so I guess
you didn't have much of a say in it,

but how did that shape you as a person?

Melissa Kwan: Yeah, absolutely.

So I moved to Canada when I was nine.

I grew up in Hong Kong.

Everybody was escaping
the Chinese takeover.

Turned out it wasn't a big deal.

And Canada's home for me.

So I went to elementary school
all the way to graduation.

Grew up in Calgary, went to
University of Vancouver where

I guess you're from right now.

Yep.

Or where, where you are living, not
where you're from, where you're living.

That's true.

And yeah, eventually, started
my first company after working

a few odd jobs here and there.

The last job that I quit was at
SAP right in Downtown Vancouver.

Quit that job when I was 27,
started my first company.

I'm on to my third now.

So, 14 years as an entrepreneur,
always bootstrapped third company.

And right now I am building eWebinar.

Which is a platform that
automates live webinars.

So we turn any video into an
interactive webinar that you

can set on a recurring schedule.

So you never have to do things like demos,
training, onboardings over and over again.

So think about it as like
the Netflix of webinars.

But in that process, for my last
startup, I moved to New York to just

be around, I guess, more of my people.

Canada and Vancouver was more
of a kind of retirement, sleepy

town or like a college town.

And I needed more motivation cause
I couldn't really do it on my own.

So I moved to New York in my early
thirties, turned out to be one of

the best decisions I ever made.

And that was for my last company
and that company I ran for five

years and was acquired in 2019.

And that was actually what gave me
the confidence and capital, but also

the idea to start eWebinar about two
months after I sold that company.

I've run eWebinar now for about five years
and we're just at about 2 million ARR.

Also bootstrapped.

Prateek Panda: That's great.

I think very few people understand the
pain and the joy in bootstrapping your

business and getting to a million,
$2 million, it's not a small feat.

And I know with my last startup,
we did raise a very small amount

of VC money and our growth curve
was not what VCs are happy with.

And we switched, you know, at one point.

There was a day when we almost decided
to shut down the company and then it

was like, some of our mentors told
us that, in terms of metrics and

growth, you're still doing so much
better than most companies out there.

And why would you want
to kill your startup?

And from there, the mindset started
evolving into profitability.

How do we have sustainable
growth and so on?

And life definitely got easier after that.

You also host a podcast called ProfitLed.

What's your thesis around that?

Melissa Kwan: Yeah.

So ProfitLed, was a
creative side project.

I was a little bit tired
of just doing software.

Um, I think like anybody that is
in software can relate to this.

It's like, it's just not tangible, right?

It's not like a product.

It's not like I make a
cup and I feel this cup.

So a lot of work in software, especially
in the beginning feels thankless, I guess.

And also never ending.

And a couple of years ago, I had an
idea for a podcast that would help

promote the idea of bootstrapping
and just introduce a different idea

of success to founders like me.

Because only 1 percent of startups
are venture funded, which means 99

percent of them are bootstrapped.

So we're actually the norm whereas
the media makes us believe that the

1 percent is the norm because they're
the ones that get written up upon.

And I've seen both sides of the coin.

I, of course, talk about the
benefits of bootstrapping, multiple

times a week on LinkedIn as well.

Um, because I want to promote
the idea that there are many

different faces of success.

It's not getting venture capital,
getting Andreessen and Horowitz.

Like that's one, that's one
path, but the other path is

defining your own idea of success.

And just living life, building a
business that sustains the lifestyle

that you want and exiting for an amount
that's not a billion dollars, right?

Something that's realistic, right?

So if you own 80 percent of the
company, you have some friends and

family investors, you sell for 5
million, that's a life changing outcome.

And most people don't make that
money ever in their life, right?

So, I wanted to start something that
lets people know that you can be

successful in many ways and, that a
lot of you feeling like you need to

be everyone else is just your ego.

And also the media talking.

So that was kind of the
beginning of ProfitLed.

So I had just one season interviewed,
15 people that were in my position.

But actually the second season
is really about our own journey

from zero to a million ARR.

So we really want to dive into like
on each episode, something that

we did that worked and didn't work
and all the trials and tribulations

of a relatable startup, right?

Not a funded startup, just like your
startup next door that had to figure

it out with no money, how we got from
zero to a million in three years.

Prateek Panda: Can you tell us a little
bit more about your move to New York city?

Melissa Kwan: Yeah.

So I, um, I love Canada.

Like that's still home.

And I grew up there and I had, you know,
I had a very, very solid, support system.

Like all my friends I grew up with
were there, but when you grow up in a

smaller town, uh, as opposed to, you
know, New York or LA or San Francisco,

people choose a certain life, right?

They choose more like domestic
life where they get married young,

have kids, buy a house, they trade
up in a house and life is great.

But for an entrepreneur, it's like
normal or like mediocre, right?

And I never felt like I fit in.

I always felt a little different.

But I couldn't really verbalize it.

So we're talking about like in my
twenties and early thirties, where all

my friends were getting married, buying
houses, getting promotions and jobs.

And I was barely making rent,
trying to build my startup and I

didn't want to get married, right?

I didn't want kids.

And so I asked one of my
friends that, I respected who

was also a mentor at the time.

You know, what was the best
thing he did for his career?

And he was like, when I was in
my twenties, I had 600 bucks

in my pocket and I moved to New
York and the rest was history.

And at that time I thought to myself,
well, I have more than 600 bucks.

You know, I can go to New York.

So a month later, having never gone to
New York, when I was 31, I moved to New

York, got an apartment on Airbnb for
a couple months, and then eventually,

rented a house with some friends.

Um, but I really just went
to New York on a whim.

And I think there was a lot
of fear about leaving home,

especially in your thirties, right?

How do you make friends?

Everyone has their friend group, right?

How do you make friends and
how do you feel accepted and

comfortable in a new city?

But I was, I just felt different
enough back home and that it

wasn't serving me anymore.

That I just needed a new adventure.

And ironically, even though in New York, I
didn't know anybody, I felt more at home.

I felt more that I could be myself.

Because everybody was there to
accomplish a mission and I was

also on a mission, whereas back
home, nobody understood my mission.

So the deeper I got into that
mission, the less I was able

to connect with them and have a
conversation, just like over brunch.

So everything became like
really superficial at home.

And then everything, in a new place became
more connected to who I was at the time.

Um, and it turned out to be the
best decision I made because a

week after I moved to New York,
I also met my life partner who

is now my Co-founder to eWebinar.

That's amazing.

And because of him, I got to , leave
New York to nomad for three years,

and then we eventually found
Amsterdam, which we have a home base.

It's just a kind of a butterfly effect
of things that happen if you take the

leap towards something you don't know.

Prateek Panda: Was it scary?

Melissa Kwan: Yeah, of course.

Like, can you go to a place
when you're 31 with no friends?

Like, I'm not talking
like, I have one friend.

I have zero, or I had zero friends.

So of course it's scary, but I think as
an entrepreneur, you thrive off risk.

You, you want it to be different.

You want it to be uncertain.

You want it to be scary.

That's what gives us energy.

That's what allows us to
do what we do every day.

So I didn't really know what a time.

But I think even though it was scary
and hard, it was like energizing.

Prateek Panda: That's amazing.

And thanks for sharing that.

And you told a little bit about, how
it was scary, but you know, you had

that urge to go figure your life
out and be yourself in a new city.

A lot of our listeners are from
India, South Asia, Southeast

Asia, Mexico, South America.

A lot of them are startup founders
and are trying to move to the U.S.

For people still on the fence about
it, what would you say is special about

New York city and why should they still
go ahead and just take the plunge?

Melissa Kwan: My perspective in New
York city is very, very different.

I think than, you know, people in
Southeast Asia, like, because I was from

Canada and I was actually born with a
U S passport, I've since given it up.

So going to New York
was much easier for me.

But it's, it's special, but it's,
I mean, honestly, it's the greatest

city in the world because it's
just like most talented people.

You have to be because if you're not
talented, you can't survive, right?

It's like the epicenter
of talent in the world.

But if you don't have that capital to
move to New York, there are a number

of places that are amazing it's, it's
London, it's Hong Kong, it's Bangkok,

like I'm currently in Bangkok right now.

Like that's where I spend my winters.

Um, it's Lisbon.

Right?

So many startup programs there, like a
lot of sort of visas that you can get.

I think the idea of like, like I heard
this really funny thing way back when

that really stuck with me is that the
American dream is the Canadian lifestyle.

So I actually don't think.

The American dream is what it
used to be in our parents age.

If you can get to New
York, great, go there.

But if it's too hard, don't do it.

There are many other incredible
places that you can go, but go

to a place that gives you energy.

Go to a place where you
are with your peers.

Like I left Vancouver
because I felt alone.

I felt different and I was lonely.

And nobody was there to motivate me.

And when you're surrounded by other
entrepreneurs, like you're, you're

energized, you feel the same and you
feel like you're with your tribe, so,

while New York is special to me, I
would always also encourage, people

that can't actually get into America
because it is hard, to look at other.

Business centers of the world.

And nowadays with Slack and communities
and, like on deck and all those things,

like you can find communities anywhere
you go, but definitely be in a place

that gives you energy, not takes it away.

Prateek Panda: That's great.

And in fact, you mentioned
about the American dream and.

I lived in California seven
years before moving to Vancouver.

And, , you know, one of my
friends, I met him in California

and we became good friends.

He's originally from Israel,
struggled to get into the US

and finally got a US green card.

but, he called me one day and
he's moved to Costa Rica and.

He called me and said, Prateek, I
found my American dream in Costa Rica.

So the thing is everybody's
chasing this American dream, but

it looks like it's not in America.

Uh, it's, it's somewhere else.

And, and it could mean different
things to different people.

I think the point is to understand what it
means for you and where can you find it.

Melissa Kwan: And every
journey is different.

But absolutely America, America is where
the money is at, but the world is flat

so you can make software anywhere in the
world like we do and sell it to Americans,

sell to Europeans, sell to Indians.

Like you are no longer
limited by your geography.

So why do you have to physically
be living in that place?

Like you could be, spending a
couple months, a year in Canada

and the US and making connections
here and there, such that you can

build a business there, right?

You don't actually need to live in a
place in order to build a business there.

And I think that's, what's beautiful
about the generation, the time that

we live in now and like the sharing
economy, like AirBnb and, Booking and

all those things makes it so easy.

To just pick up and go and find a
place and pay like at market rent or

a little bit above and have the same
experience as if you were a resident.

Prateek Panda: You talked a little
bit about, you starting a co-living

experience in New York as well.

How did you, you know, find
courage to do something like that?

You were in a new city, you said you
didn't know anyone and then wanting

to, share an apartment with strangers.

Melissa Kwan: Yeah.

So New York is the only place in
the world where you could be 50 and

sharing an apartment and it's normal.

So that's, let's like
preface it with that.

But basically when I moved to New York or
when I was even thinking about moving to

New York, a friend of mine said, Hey, like
I know about this housing project, there's

a couple of people that want to rent,
a five bedroom, two level Brownstone.

They're missing like a third founder.

If you're thinking about moving to New
York, maybe this is a good opportunity.

On the same track of like having no
friends, I saw that investing in the lease

of this apartment would be my ticket.

To meeting new people.

And so the whole idea of the house was
like, this was like, before we live before

co-living spaces, like we're talking like
2017, so it was supposed to be a place

where we would live and work, but also
have a place to host professional and.

Personal events because in Manhattan
spaces are so small that nobody

has space like our dining table for
18 people and that was very rare.

Yeah, but the problem with New York City
is you can't rent a place until Unless you

put in like for example, like six months.

Six months rent as deposit And then
have a guarantor so you can imagine

what the deposit is if the rent is
twelve thousand dollars times six Yeah.

So they were missing that one
person to, to do that investment.

So as I was thinking about
moving away from Vancouver, I

kind of took that as a sign.

and I basically sold my car in Vancouver
cause in New York you don't need a car.

And instead of paying off my
credit card debts, which is what a

sensible person would do, took that
money and, and became the third co

founder to this housing project.

And that became.

The, I guess, catalyst for every
friendship and every professional

relationship in New York for three years.

Prateek Panda: That's amazing.

Let's switch gears a little and talk
about eWebinar, it's essentially a

PLG company, for all of our listeners.

I think everybody understands, but
still, a product led growth company

where product drives growth itself.

But you kind of had no
idea about what PLG is.

And you learned it on the fly.

Tell us a little bit more
about that experience.

Melissa Kwan: I love the fact
that you did all this research.

All your questions are
basically like nailing it.

Uh, so, um, I'm on my 14th
year of entrepreneurship.

My first two companies
were both in enterprise.

And my career before that
was in sales to companies.

So my entire premise of who I am and my
businesses is built on enterprise sales.

So I thought I knew what I was doing.

Like I'm very good at cold calling emails,
meeting people face to face, signing

contracts face to face, but never done a
PLG company before, never done inbound.

Like I've always been jealous
of people that do that because

I hate showing up in real life.

But coming to eWebinar, I thought I
want to build a company that is a

hundred percent sold over the internet.

I don't want to do any calls,
no conferences, and it's going

to be priced accordingly.

What I mean by that is like,
if you are charging somebody 10

grand a month, you're showing up.

Like they have your cell phone number,
which is what I was doing before.

But if you're charging people a hundred
bucks a month, like everybody goes to an

inbox, like nobody has your phone number.

And that's the business I wanted
to build because I'm nomadding

nine months of the year, I'm in a
different time zone all the time.

Like I just want my freedom.

I don't want my schedule
to be tied to my customers.

So coming to eWebinar because
I'd always had success selling,

I thought, how hard could it be?

It turns out that trying to get
people to come to your website.

Without talking to them having them
sign up on trial putting their credit

card and then keeping their credit
card in and continue on the trial is

10 to 20 times harder than talking
to someone face to face and guiding

them through the the sales cycle.

So that was like a rude awakening.

I think a year into eWebinar like
realizing like I do not have the skills

to do this, but it was a challenge.

And I think every founder, like,
what do you do when you have a

challenge, you figure it out.

Like you don't have a choice, right?

You're invested.

I put in my own money, other
people invested in my dream.

So I think that was just a rude awakening.

And I think in life, you're
either a student or a teacher

and you get to choose.

If you're a teacher, you learn
nothing, but when you, when you

surrender, right, and you start the
day with, I don't know what I'm doing.

Let me figure it out.

Then you start to uncover these things
and you start turning stones over.

And so it's been, a couple of years
since we realized, okay, we actually

have to learn everything new.

And a product like growth
company is not a product company.

It's a marketing company.

It's a, it's really a marketing
led and customer led company.

And yes, of course you have
to have a good product.

So people talk about you, but
how do you get them to even know

about you in the first place?

So all of that is new for the last year.

And it's what myself and my COO, who is
really like the third co founder, is

trying to figure out and we're constantly
trying to figure it out and we don't

really know what we're doing yet.

And then the toughest thing about
being a bootstrap company is you don't

have money to throw at a problem.

That's true.

So what are the zero dollar marketing
strategies that, we can deploy, to

get more eyeballs, but that was the
journey to realizing, I actually don't

know what I'm doing and the stuff that
I knew for 15 years no longer apply.

So where do you start?

Prateek Panda: Talking about bootstrapped
companies, you've also mentioned it

took you around 36 months or so to
get to your first million in ARR.

Considering this is your first time doing
a PLG product, it took you, about three

years to get to a million dollar ARR.

If you were to start something
today, what would you do?

Would you do something different to
maybe get there faster or have you

learned something in the process
that would make you feel more

confident about doing this again?

Melissa Kwan: Absolutely.

Um, and I am glad you asked that because
I was actually yesterday thinking about

what I would do differently next time
around if I were to have a company like

eWebinar for me is my retirement plan.

Like, either I sell this for retirement
money or it generates enough money for me

to just live well, but I'm not starting
another one because I have to, my

next project will be a passion project
because otherwise, what's the point?

And so I thought about the most
successful people I know in my circle.

The most successful people I know in
my circle are all marketers who sell

consumer products, luggage company.

Dog food brand, like tangible stuff.

, if I were to do this again, I would
not start a tech company again.

One it's because of the challenge, I
want to learn something different.

I am actually super interested because
I'm like such a big fan of Instagram

and I want to be sold to an Instagram
because I want to see how they do it

and I want to learn about new products.

And I've gotten really
cool products from there.

And I I'm so fascinated by how you get
a product into the hands of someone,

but I've never had the time to learn it.

So that's like my next fascination is
like, I want to see like, how do you

produce something and then how do you
market it getting into someone's hands?

But when I was thinking about it
yesterday, I was like, wait, like all

the most successful people I know,
like hundreds of millions of dollars in

revenue are consumer product entrepreneurs
that started off as marketers.

So if I were to do it differently, I
wouldn't do tech again, because tech is

a lot of upfront with uncertain returns,

like tech returns are
very like black and white.

, and if you are a company that
sustains, you don't sell for a lot.

So it's still kind of
black and white, right?

$10 million company, but if you
don't grow for five years, nobody

will pay you 10 times multiple.

They only pay you 10 times
multiple if you're growing at

50 to a hundred percent a year.

So while your $10 million company pays
you great for 10 years, like there

is no real payout kind of at the end.

Right.

So, yeah, so I think I would next
time around challenge myself to think

about different types of businesses.

And see like what else is out there in
the world that I can do, but I've got this

like utopian dream that I would sell this
thing for like retirement level money,

and then I would just have these passion
projects that would cover my expenses.

And I would never like touch my
savings, but let's see what happens.

Prateek Panda: Although my
next question is very personal,

you can choose not to answer.

What do you think is retirement money?

Melissa Kwan: My number is $10 million.

Why is that?

I have no idea.

It's like an ego talking.

But I'll tell you a funny story.

Like I, I am an advocate
for lifestyle over revenue.

Like happiness over business.

Like we are a lifestyle company.

We're super bootstrapped.

We're a hundred percent remote.

Like we pay people more than
quote unquote market rate in

the countries that they live in.

We give good bonuses cause
we want people to stay.

We encourage them to take time off.

Like we want them to be happy.

And in December, I always
take a month off in December.

Like not completely.

Like I I'm, I'm like engaged,
but I'm not doing stuff.

And coming back into the new year.

Was extremely, extremely difficult
because I was reminded how little I enjoy

working and how much I like having fun.

And so, the first thing I did when I came
back to work, like second week of January

was I took out my cap table because we
have some friends and family investors.

And I started doing calculations on.

What is the minimum amount that I
can sell for to never work again?

And then I started
questioning, is it $10 million?

Is it $3 million?

Is it $4 million?

Like how much do I actually need?

So I feel like that
number kind of fluctuates.

I say 10 because I think
like my ego says 10.

It's like, sounds like a cool number.

But at the end of the day, like
how much money do we actually

need to live a great life?

Like I don't really spend more than
$10,000 a month and I live pretty large,

so that's like a thing that I question
all the time is like, why do I need that?

Is it a need or is it a want?

But I do think that like
creating stuff is fun.

So how awesome would it be if I could
just create a project that's fun.

And you know, that just
kind of covers expenses.

And then I could just have a nest
egg that I can transfer to, you

know, my partner's kids or whatnot.

Prateek Panda: Yeah, I think
a lot of, people, especially

on Twitter do stuff like that.

I know a couple of guys I was talking to
recently, who do these weekend projects

and each one of them has a very short
life, makes money for maybe a couple of

years or so and they take it to a point
where they can make a hundred thousand

dollars off of it in two years or so.

But that's still great money
and it keeps you excited.

You might still have your day job,
but your weekend passion project

fuels your, retirement fund or,
keeps you excited enough to wake

up every day spend on luxuries or
whatever else that you might want to.

Melissa Kwan: The key is
understanding what's enough, right?

What is enough?

You read about all this shit
on LinkedIn or whatever.

You're like, I need, or I'm
making $6 million a year.

And you're like, seriously, you're
making $6 million a year as a solo

entrepreneur selling a course.

Like what the heck am I doing?

But at some point you got to draw the
line and be like, okay, this is enough

because there are other priorities in my
life that I want to spend time on, but

I'm all about doing what makes you happy.

So, if what makes you happy is
working all the time so you can IPO

some company, you should do that.

But I actually think that that's not
what most people want I think most

people work to have complete freedom.

Like we think we want to be rich,
but what we want is complete freedom.

Freedom to call our shots, right?

To spend time with friends and family,
to go to anything we want without asking

for permission, to have every experience
we want without looking at the cheapest

flight or the cheapest hotel that we
can stay in, for me, that's freedom and

it doesn't actually take that much, I
don't want to own a yacht or a plane I

just want to be able to book a flight
anytime I want without like trying

to optimize and I think like 20K a
month, like 20, 30K a month is, is

plenty is actually plenty to spend.

And if you are an entrepreneur,
like I would encourage you, stop

looking at the a hundred millions.

It's not realistic.

Like it could be you,
but it probably won't.

So think about how to make your first 10K.

And then 20K and then 30K, don't think
in terms of hundreds of millions,

first take care of yourself and
then set a goal that feeds your ego.

But if you don't exist, there
is no big payout, but don't

kill yourself in the process.

Yeah.

Prateek Panda: And I think, that
lesson is also more important

in a bootstrappers journey.

And how do you.

Like, I know you've been
doing this for a while.

This is your third bootstrap company.

So you might have like conditioned
yourself to certain things, but if

somebody is taking their first stab
at a bootstrap startup, what do you

tell them to motivate them to not get
bogged down by, you know, all the other

stuff that media is throwing at you?

Melissa Kwan: Yeah, I
think that's really hard.

It's like it's like going to the gym, you
know, it's a muscle, you know, it's not

like black or white, you know It's like
something you have to train because today

you could be like, yeah I'm not gonna
be bogged down by that and then tomorrow

you go back to where you you are It's
it's reprogramming, but I would say that

the media and the world has some sort
of defined idea of success like who you

should be, like getting invested in by
a VC better yet, a brand name VC, being

on the cover of Forbes or TechCrunch and
having all the accolades, top 30 under

30, top 40 like in the end, none of those
things matter outside of a momentary

blip in your ego or like the only thing
that I say to people is like really

figure out what is your idea of success.

And it's not always a number, right?

So my idea of success is no
alarm clocks, I'm a night owl.

I don't get up in the morning I
don't take meetings in the morning.

I have to be able to do what I what I do
from anywhere in the world So completely

nomadic, completely remote team.

I don't want any employees.

So we only want contractors.

I want to make enough money so I can do
whatever I want at the time that I want.

I want to go to as many
weddings, festivals, parties

as I want to in the year.

I don't want to look at price point
when I order food at a restaurant.

Like I don't want to be price conscious.

So that's my idea of success.

My idea of success is not,
I want to own a yacht.

I want to fly private.

I want to have this penthouse.

I think most people think that the idea
of success is like something superficial,

but I would encourage people, especially
first time founders to look deeper.

Ask yourself, if you want that penthouse,
why do you need all that space?

Or do you want other people to
say, Hey, you're super cool.

So when you start diving in, you
start to realize that a lot of

these things are driven by ego.

And I would also say that it's
hard to not be enamored by that

when you're younger because I was.

As you live, you start to realize
like there are so many more things

in your life that are, that make
you happy than making money at work.

So spending time with friends, traveling,
experience different cultures, building

communities, like work is just a
means to do more of those things.

So I think just have a very clear
definition of what success means to

you at any given point in your life,
and then you will know when to stop.

And it's a, it's, that is a muscle
that you have to build because the

next thing, like when, even when
you're comfortable with yourself,

you go to some startup event and
everyone's talking about the millions

that they raise and all of a sudden
you're right back where you started.

So the hardest thing is to be
comfortable and confident in your

own idea of who you want to be.

And then feel like when you're in that
environment, just brushing it off, right?

Just brushing it off and
being like, you know what?

I hear that's what you want,
but that's not what I want.

And I'm unaffected by it, right?

That's, that's like the, the nirvana,
I guess, like entrepreneurship.

Prateek Panda: I think that's great
advice and I think everybody deep down

knows that it's just that we don't
want to, acknowledge it you know,

what you really need, you know, why
you need the penthouse, or, you know,

when it's about ego, a lot of times,
we just don't want to acknowledge it

and we just keep running because
that's what we're supposed to do,

or we've been conditioned to do.

But Melissa, on that note, I think
that was, amazing advice I think,

everybody listening to this would find
it really helpful, but this was the

conversation that at least I needed today.

So thank you so much for
spending time with us.

And it feels like there's so much
more to talk, to you about, and

hopefully we will find time to talk
about a few other things once again.

Melissa Kwan: Absolutely.

Well, thanks so much for having me.

Prateek Panda: And that
wraps up today's episode.

Before we sign off, I would like
to thank you for your support

and thanks for tuning in.

If you loved today's episode.

Then don't forget to subscribe to this
podcast and never miss an episode.

Be kind, be happy, challenge the norm.

I'll see you folks again for the next one.