Off to the Valley

Aashni Shah: In that one month, it
validated, do not build this, I'm

not the right person to build this.

I have no joy building this.

Right at the end of that, someone very
close friend of mine was showing me

something that he's been building and that
sparked so much joy in my heart again, and

it gave me the inspiration for the version
of HypeDocs that I'm working on today

Prateek Panda: Hello and welcome back
to Off To the Valley, the podcast

where we dive deep into the journeys
of entrepreneurs and innovators who are

reshaping industries around the world.

I'm your host, Prateek Panda,
and today we are thrilled to be

joined by Aashni Shah, the
founder and CEO of HypeDocs, an AI

powered platform designed to help
users track their personal and

professional achievements and goals.

Aashni's journey from Nairobi,
Kenya to becoming an influential

entrepreneur in the tech industry
is nothing short of inspiring.

After studying computer science at
the University of Toronto, Aashni

worked as a software engineer for
established companies like Microsoft

and Square before founding HypeDocs.

Today, NY is on a mission to bridge
the gap in the job market for women

and minorities, providing them with the
tools they need to confidently ask for

promotions and raises that they deserve.

Aashni, it's a pleasure
to have you on the show.

Welcome to Off To The Valley.

Aashni Shah: Thanks so much
Prateek and happy to be here.

Hello to everyone that's tuning in.

Prateek Panda: Great.

So I have a lot of questions.

Of course, we'll learn more about
HypeDocs, but before we get to that, tell

us a little bit about Aashni as a person.

What was your childhood like?

If any of that played an influence
in getting you to where you are.

Aashni Shah: Oof, that we might need
more than half an hour for this.

I would love to say I had a really
positive childhood and upbringing.

I was born and grew up in Kenya.

If you are seeing a video of me,
I don't look Kenyan, I look Indian

because my ancestors are from India.

But our family immigrated to
Kenya four generations ago and

my parents are still there.

And they run a family business.

So it's my dad and his brothers, and it
was started by my grandpa, my dad's dad.

So my childhood was.

Amazing in terms of I had
lots of family to support me.

I made lots of friends, I
went to some great schools.

But especially with this
entrepreneurial path that I'm on today.

I think I always knew I was going
to end up on this journey somehow.

Because that's what my dad
does, that's what my uncles do.

And we have a group of businesses in
Kenya, so you know if you don't have

interest in one specific type of company,
we had so many others that you could

kind of hop between and learn so much.

And I think that that's been one
of the bigger influences in my life

is I was given these incredible
opportunities from a young age

too be part of these businesses.

Learn from not just my dad,
but my uncles, and as my elder

cousins have joined the business.

Learn from them as well.

Prateek Panda: That's great.

Were those also tech businesses or, no.

Aashni Shah: No, they're actually
the opposite of tech businesses.

They're very much brick and mortar.

One of them's a mall with some hotels.

Another one is an auto industry
or it's in the auto industry.

There's one that's, lighting.

So very much not tech friendly.

And in the last sort of year or so,
I've actually started working with

the family business in my free time,

'cause as founders we have so
much free time and it's been fun.

And I'm helping lead a technical team
that, our entire job is to go and build

out or implement or integrate into other
platforms that exist to see how we can

sort of bring them out of spreadsheets
and into really powerful tools to just

to make their everyday lives better
and maybe spin some of those up into

our own tech products down the future.

Prateek Panda: That's great.

The reason I asked is, I had
almost guessed it might be a

traditional business because it's
been running for a few generations.

And there's an interesting trend going on.

Even in the tech community, there
are many people who are talking about

boring businesses as they call it.

And there is you know, a fair sense of
learning and accomplishment there as well.

And I want to know more about what
encouraged you to take the tech founder

path versus sort of expanding on what
your family knew already and maybe you

got an experience on and why did you
not decide to, I don't like calling

it boring businesses, but that's the
terminology that people are going for,

but, what got you excited about tech?

Aashni Shah: Yeah, I think
the boring businesses is

where the money is right now.

So you're completely hitting the nail
on the head there, and I'm sure we'll

talk about that more in a few minutes.

In terms of my journey and how
I ended up here, when I was

younger, I wanted to be a lawyer.

I should probably be very honest
and say my dad wanted me to be

a lawyer and I didn't object.

So for a very long time, I started,
I was preparing myself for that.

And then coming into about ninth grade or
eighth grade, I just got very into coding.

As an eighth grader, which is
very abnormal for an Indian girl

in Kenya, but, it is what it is.

That's when I started getting
very into the tech world as well.

I try to believe I'm pretty good at
looking into the future, or like my

instincts are good about noticing trends.

So as an eighth grader, ninth
grader, trying to figure out what

I wanna do in university, I worked
backwards and was like, what courses

do I need to take in high school
to qualify for university programs?

From that I was like, I have two options.

I can either go down this law path
or I can go down the computer science

path and because I wanted to come
to North America with both of those,

to do law, you have to do undergrad.

A lot of people do your sort of
traditional political science

or pre-law as your undergrad.

And I said, no, let me
do computer science.

Let me get this technical knowledge.

And if I'm still interested in law after
that, I can go into law with a very strong

technical background because guess what?

By the time I graduate, we're
going to need lawyers that

understand how tech works.

We still need lawyers that
understand how tech works.

So I'm really glad to see that pan out.

But when I entered university and I
started meeting other people, I started

coding, I started problem solving and
then just working in the industry, after

graduation, I felt I'd found my people.

I felt very seen in terms of these are
people I can get on with very well.

We think a lot of the same ways
in terms of like, we, like problem

solving, we love board games.

We like, we're that kind of people.

We're not necessarily the
out clubbing kind of person.

Not that there's anything wrong with them.

I just, in my childhood, I tried to fit
into that crowd and it just wasn't me.

So it just felt like I'd found
the people I belonged with and.

The idea or the notion of law
slipped further and further away.

I think I was also always struggled
with law because I would want the

financial security of working at a
big law firm, but I'd wanna work on

things that made the heart feel good.

Whether it's like social
justice or things like that.

And as I learned more about how to become
a lawyer, I found that would definitely

be something that would be a struggle.

Whereas with tech, you can do both
and you can do both really well.

And so I think that's sort of how I
meandered into becoming a tech person.

And then I worked as a software engineer.

I did some internships at Amazon
and a few other companies.

And then after graduating, I joined
Microsoft and eventually moved on

to Square and in end of 2019, I
left my job at Square and I was

living in Kitchener, which is a
smaller town outside of Toronto.

And I wanted to move back to Toronto.

That was the reason I left.

Loved the company, loved the team,
always rooting for them but I just

couldn't live in Kitchener anymore.

It was like killing my soul.

And so I moved back to Toronto
and I was like, yay, I'm gonna

have a social life again.

And the plan at that point was,
to get a good, stable job and then

spend my evenings learning how to
be an entrepreneur and maybe start

dabbling in building something.

The world had a different idea
and sort of laughed at me 'cause

Covid entered the chat instead.

And so that social life idea
completely went out the door.

And then I got a call from my dad kind
of just saying, Hey, we both know this

is becoming a thing and maybe you should
consider coming back to Kenya for a

little bit until everything calms down.

And he said the magic words to me, which
is if anything happens to him or my mom,

or if anything happens to me and we're not
together, that like, I don't want that.

So I went back to Kenya.

We thought it'd be two or three weeks.

It ended up being eight
months of me being there and.

That's when I was going through
a lot of trying to figure

out what I want to do now.

And that's where a lot of realizations
came up, where I was struggling with why

I felt a little restless at my job in
Square, which I didn't realize until then.

And I was feeling restless because I was
being pigeonholed to only be a developer.

And I knew I could do more
than being a developer.

I had all of this business experience that
I could already see being a huge benefit.

And I know the people I worked
with at Square knew saw that

and knew that about me as well.

And, then I bit the bullet.

There was a program called
the Ontech Fellowship.

Which was, it's still one of
the best programs I think today.

And I was accepted into ODF four, which is
the first virtual cohort 'cause of Covid.

And it completely transformed my
life in terms of how I think about

entrepreneurship and just throwing me
into it with a really good sort of hand

to guide me through those early stages.

So that's how I ended up going
from wanting to be a lawyer when

I was 12 to a technical founder.

And I think today, the technical
part, while it's still there, I

still code every now and then.

I think it's all the other skills that
are almost more important than the coding.

'cause I can hire
someone to do the coding.

And AI can do the coding for me as well.

Let's not lie about this, but when
it comes to understanding what to

code and how to market it or you
know, with the family business,

what are the problems they're facing
for us to figure out what to build.

I think those are becoming the
more interesting challenges now.

Prateek Panda: That's great.

Thank you so much for Yeah, thank
you so much for sharing all of that.

And I have so many follow up
questions to try and dig into

a few different parts there.

But let's start with ODF, right?

OnDeck is a very popular
fellowship program.

In your experience, what are some
two or three things that was really

impactful for you that you would say
that this is one of the best programs?

Aashni Shah: Yeah, so massive asterisk.

The program has changed a
lot since I was part of it.

It, when I was there it was fully virtual.

Now they're focusing a bit more in person.

So for anyone listening, I think the
foundations of what I mentioned are still

true, but the program is run differently.

I think one of the things they
really focused on is curating a

really talented group of people
and bringing them together.

I was in a cohort with the likes
of Chris Messina, who is one

of the leaders on Product Hunt.

Like if you want to post your product
on Product Hunt, he's one of the people

you wanna try and get to help you.

And I don't wanna say I
had easy access to him.

That's not the right way to phrase it.

What OnDeck had curated was they would
provide a certain amount of programming.

So they would have incredible
outside speakers come in and tell

us things like how to figure out.

How to validate your product.

I think we even had one of the founders
from Superhuman come and teach us

the product market fit concept.

And then we had people from our
community like Chris Messina come

and do internal workshops based on
their knowledge and their expertise.

And I mentioned Chris Messina and
Product Hunt in particular because I

followed that guidebook to a T when I
launched the first version of HypeDocs.

I don't wanna say how many years ago,
'cause it's a little embarrassing, but,

we ended up being one of the top three
products of the day and actually won a

grant from Product Hunt, and that would
not have been possible if I hadn't had

that kind of access or that knowledge and
insight from someone like Chris Messina.

Yeah.

Prateek Panda: That's great.

You also spent some time at the
University of Toronto's entrepreneurship

team or the department, did that
play some sort of a support role?

Can you tell us a little bit
more about how that's helpful?

Aashni Shah: Yeah, so I.

I think the way I did it looking back
might have been a bit of a mistake.

Um, but I did a lot of the programs,
what, which almost whichever program

I could get into that was free and
didn't require equity, during Covid.

'cause a lot of them were virtual
and somewhat easy to join.

I think each program was really valuable.

The reason I say I think it was a
bit of a mistake for me is I spend

more time going through programming
than I did on the startups or

doing the validating and building.

So something I'm trying to focus
on right now is really scaling back

and only going to things where I
think there's an immediate value,

which I can like quickly perceive.

It's a thing, we all go through it.

I like learning it.

I think there's always something more I
can learn, but at some point that trade

off point or that ROI is no longer there.

UFT is actually one that I'm
currently actively part of.

I'm super fortunate that they
actually offer office space, which

is 10 minutes from where I live.

So I'm able to go and work out
of there whenever I need to.

I can bring guests in so we can have like
coworking sessions and things like that.

They have the program as it exists today,
they offer so many different things.

Like, there's a whole lab area.

I'm not a hardware founder, but
if you're a hardware founder,

they have space for that.

If you are doing stuff with food, if you
wanna record podcasts, if you have any

sort of arts and crafts type of thing, and
I don't wanna demean it by think arts and

crafts, but if you're building physical
products, they have space for that.

Now they're leveraging the UFT network,
so they brought in a professor to come and

give us startup advice and make sure that
we're building in the right direction.

And I think that's the kind of hands-off,
but accessible hands-on that I need

at the stage that I'm at right now.

Prateek Panda: One thing I do want
to emphasize is something that you

said that's very, very important,
which is to not get lost in too much

learning, that could really be a thing.

You did share your experience about you
spending a lot of time in programming

rather than when I say programming, not
writing code, but attending a lot of

these workshops rather than building,
but, and that's applicable to so many

different things as founders, like
a lot of hardcore technical founders

spend way too much time continuing
to build products and not talking to

customers because that's comfort zone.

Likewise, a lot of us might.

Like going to these workshops to keep
learning, but we are not launching.

I've also experienced that events are
similar where when you're new to a

place and you're new to an industry,
you start going to a lot of events.

You will come across a time when
you'll meet the same kind of people

over and over again and you'll
meet, have similar learnings, right?

And you need to be able to observe
these things when they happen because

it's very easy to sort of keep drifting
along these things and lose focus.

So thank you for sharing that.

I wanted to sort of bring it back and so
a lot of our listeners who might be in

that stage hopefully it strikes a bell.

Aashni Shah: Yeah, I would love to
add something to that very quickly.

I think you're touching on
such an important point.

Half of my founder friends and I
talk about this all the time, where

a year ago, especially as we came
out of Covid and wanted that social

connection again, I think I would be
going to four or five events in a week.

Which is insane because that's two
to four hours every single day that I

was at some sort of technical event.

Luckily the costs are negligible.

A lot of these are free or like 10, $20
I can walk or take the subway to them.

So it's easy for me
'cause I live downtown.

If you're living outside the city,
that's an extra hour or two hours

of commuting time that you're doing.

For a certain period.

It's really good to go for these
because you can network and

connect with people that you might
not otherwise have access to.

And sometimes going to these with that
specific thought in mind is important,

but I was definitely hitting a point where

I just felt burnt out, like going to
event after event and then the next day

being like, why am I not making any sales?

Or why am I not making progress
on this thing that I should

be making progress on faster?

And it's 'cause I'm spending four
hours out of my day at an event

that's not really relevant to
any of the stuff that I'm doing.

And or maybe there is one event out of
those four that is good in that week, but,

it's getting drowned out and I'm
not able to action on any of those

items that I should be focusing on.

So in the last few months I've been
traveling, like I was back home in Kenya

for a little bit, but since I've been
back, I think I've only been to two

events in the last month and a half.

And both of those events is, I knew
one of the speakers on the panel.

And so it was partly, yeah, and
literally the one I went to this

week as I walked into the door, I
just felt this whoosh of, do I really

have the energy to be here today?

I'm really glad I stuck around
and stayed at that event.

It was excellent.

The speakers were great.

I asked a question to one of the speakers
during the panel, and the answer that I

got profoundly changed the way that I'm
thinking about my IP strategy, which would

not have happened if I hadn't gone there.

I wouldn't have been in the right
mindset if I had just been going to

event after event, so just wanted
to share that out with everyone.

Prateek Panda: That's great.

Thank you so much for sharing it.

One of the things that I tell some of the
founders that I've had a chance to mentor

is to always go with some sort of a plan.

And you don't have to sit
through the entire event.

If an event is four hours long, you pick
what you want to do, walk out when you

want to, and know, like in your case
you knew, you did the research, to find

out who's the speaker, what are they
talking about, what is the question

that I have that I want to get answered?

Right?

And you want to be sure of what
you want to do at the event.

If it is networking, no, with a goal.

I want to meet seven new
people today who do X, Y, ZI.

Maybe they'll be helpful in the future,
or I want to meet five new people who

could be potential customers, or I
want to meet two new people who could

be possibly mentors for me, whatever.

Right?

Like think about what you are
going to this event for, instead of

Aashni Shah: And measure it.

Prateek Panda: spending
time and measure it.

Yeah.

That's

Aashni Shah: Measure it.

Everything you said, put it in a
spreadsheet and say, okay, this month

my goal is to go to four events, and
from those four events, I want to meet

five potential customers, or I want to,
you know, X, Y, and Z and measure it.

And if you're not getting that
outcome in that 'cause that's not

your marketing strategy, move on.

Find a different strategy instead.

Prateek Panda: That's great.

I'm going to take a few steps
back to one of the things that you

mentioned in this answer also, but
also when you were talking about

your time moving back to Kenya.

Post covid the first year or two was
really rough on so many people depending

on what part of the world you were in.

The impact of that could have
been felt significantly stronger.

But overall, I think everybody would
agree that, that was one of the most

difficult times in recent history.

As founders, we go through a
lot of mental health challenges.

We rarely talk about it.

One of the things I try to bring up on
the show is to hear more perspectives.

You mentioned briefly that you were
going through that phase where you

were also trying to understand who
you are, what do you want to do and as

founders that cycle keeps repeating.

It's like even the most accomplished
founders keep going back into the loop

because there's more pressure on them.

If you've had one startup exit or
go IPO, the expectation is that the

next one will be even a bigger IPO.

Right.

So, what was going through your mind?

Have you been able to work out
some techniques that help you

navigate these sort of days better?

Aashni Shah: So such an important topic.

The two things running through my
mind is I wanna share something that

happened to me end of October last year.

And then the second is it's
not a plug for HypeDocs, which

we will talk about, I'm sure.

But, I think it's a big reason that
I want that I'm focusing on HypeDocs.

'cause I think HypeDocs is a tool that can
help people track the things that they're

good at and we wanna hype you, like, we
want to help you celebrate yourself in

moments where you're not sure about that.

So a lot of the experiences I've gone
through are a reason that I keep pushing

on and wanting to build HypeDocs.

Now going back to October last
year, when you talk about having

these, like big moments, I was
hitting a really tough moment.

I had been working on HypeDocs
for I think two and a half,

maybe three years at that point.

Done a couple of major pivots.

The latest pivot wasn't working, I think
mentally I knew that months before, and

I just wasn't willing to admit it yet.

Or actually I think I'd admitted
it to myself very quietly.

But I hadn't actioned on
anything because I didn't know

what to focus my time on next.

And for me to say, okay, I'm not working
on HypeDocs was fine, but to say, to

not have anything to say that I was
working on, that was scary for me.

And that's where I started going
into the, that downward spiral of,

okay, well what am I doing with my
time and am I wasting it on HypeDocs?

And I feel like a failure and
like all of those thoughts.

Really had a hard time sort of hitting
the end of October last year, going

into November, I had a couple of
conversations with some great people.

Most of them are people that know
me really well, and then there was

one or two that I never met before.

They were first conversations that I
met through one way or another and from

but they were calls scheduled before
I had this sort of mental break and.

At that point, like after when the moment
happened, I told myself I'm not gonna

do anything for the next two weeks.

I will follow up with the
calls I have scheduled, but I'm

not gonna do any active work.

I'm not gonna try to make any code changes
or anything like that because mentally

I'm not in a space to work on it anymore.

I was doing client work, so I'll like
build websites for other people and

that's how I make money on the side.

So, that at least, like I wasn't
worried about income or anything like

that, but for HypeDocs in particular,
I just stopped and I had decided it

was time to kill it, time to move on.

And then I, in that two week
period, I didn't do any work on it.

I'd already mentally
stopped working on it.

And then I had a couple conversations,
and I'm not going to name the

people who said it, 'cause I think
one or two of them are private.

But some of the general things
that they mentioned were.

I in that moment was trying to solve
many big things with one answer.

So, for example, what
am I doing with my life?

What should I be doing with HypeDocs?

What am I doing with my partner?

'cause I'm, you know, we're planning
our lives with my partner as well.

You know, should I spend more time
in Kenya and helping with a family

business, or should I keep working here?

And those are all very scary, very
big topics all at the same time.

And a little part of that not one that.

I personally felt too much, but I know a
lot of people out there do, which is if I

compare myself to another developer that's
at the same level as me, and I see, with

developers, if you get the right deal
and equity and things like that, you've

probably got a good amount saved up.

You've probably got one house, you've
probably got an investment property.

Quite a few of my friends
have a kid or just got married

or, you know, X, Y, and Z.

So a lot of that comparison starts
coming out into these conversations.

One friend told me very specifically,
you're trying to solve all these

really tough, hard questions with
one answer, and there's no one

answer that's going to solve this.

And that one answer, like even if you
found a part of an answer, it could

change in six months, and that's okay.

And so part of my, like forcing myself
to not do anything, was to just watch tv.

I watched, Queen of the South all
five seasons, which is great 'cause

apparently I needed gore in that moment.

But in the background, my mind started
unraveling all these big things that I was

going through and trying to figure out.

Okay, what is good about Kenya?

What is good about Canada?

What is good about my partner?

Everything is good about him.

What is good about
HypeDocs or something else?

And at that point, HypeDocs is out.

Let's go and pursue this
other idea that I had.

And when I started untangling
each one into its own thing.

I started feeling a lot calmer and I
started identifying answers to some,

and for others it's like I can't
make a decision on this until I have

a different, like until I have an
answer to this other step first, and

that's fine, but I started to feel a
sense of control over my life again.

And I then worked on a different idea.

I told myself, and you touched
on this earlier, I told myself,

I'm not gonna write a single line
of code until I validated this.

Or I have customers that
are willing to pay for it.

I spent a month validating it.

It was a software and AI powered software
to help boards, like company boards.

I'm on one board, I'm
about to join a second one.

I've gone through,
corporate board training.

So I had a fair amount of
knowledge in there and AI can

help with a lot of things.

I was connected really quickly to
some amazing people in like that

are on some incredible boards,
including someone who's on the Air

Canada board and things like that.

In that one month, it validated,
do not build this, I'm not the

right person to build this.

I have no joy building this.

Right at the end of that, someone very
close friend of mine was showing me

something that he's been building and that
sparked so much joy in my heart again,

and it gave me the inspiration for the
version of HypeDocs that I'm working on

today and that we've launched, which is
using, audio input as a way to get you

to write journals or to say your journals.

There's, it's a lot of therapy by just
word vomiting what's on your mind.

Clearly I do a lot of that.

And then, our AI prompts right now will
go and analyze what you're saying and

surface a lot of the small wins that
you're not thinking about from just

whatever you've shared about your day.

There's a lot of things we're going to
be adding on, obviously, especially after

the IP strategy thing I mentioned earlier.

But that moment for me was probably
one of the most pivotal moments where

it could have gone either direction.

I could have kept pounding the
pavement and kept pushing myself to go

through this in a really painful way.

Or I could have done what I'm fortunate
I did do, which is rely on my friends

and my network, listen to their advice,
and slowly, I don't have answers to all

those questions yet, but slowly start
answering the ones I could control and

get back to a place where I feel really
good and happy with the choices I'm making

and with the work that I'm doing, both
actual work and you know, the things

I'm doing outside of my day job as well.

Prateek Panda: That is great.

Thank you so much for sharing all of
that Aashni, and it's amazing to see how

HypeDocs came into existence and is also
solving some of the things that we were

just chatting about with mental health.

And this, we are part of
the tech industry where.

There's a lot of the tech bro culture.

As a woman entrepreneur, how have
you been sort of navigating that?

And I've read your journey a little
bit and it also said about you being

in that place where HypeDocs became an
idea because there is enough evidence

to show that women more often don't
think that they've done something

significant, whereas men tend to

be able to showcase more than
what they have actually done.

And that we've seen so much data
being shared about applying to jobs.

If you see a job description,
more men would apply even if

they don't meet the criteria.

And more women would choose not to
apply even if they miss out on one

or two criteria because they think
they would not need the requirement.

Right.

And how is all of that playing a
role as you are navigating your

journey in the tech space, but
also how is HypeDocs helping other

women to find their way forward?

Aashni Shah: Yeah.

Great.

Great set of questions.

I have many thoughts on this.

I am, I'm sure you can guess that.

From my childhood, I was never told I
couldn't do anything because I'm a girl.

I was always pushed and encouraged to try
and do whatever it is I was interested in.

I had issues doing certain things,
but that was not 'cause of my gender.

That was 'cause of other
issues out there in the world.

One of them very
transparently being my weight.

I was always a heavier person which is
another thing that founders will deal with

or struggle with in, in variety of ways.

I was given a lot of confidence, or
I had a lot of confidence growing up,

and that translated really well into me
joining the workforce here in Canada.

I'm also super aware of the
privilege I had that I could go to

a university, like University of
Toronto, study Computer Science there.

It's a world renowned university, and I am
not saying that to pump my ego but rather

to just emphasize why it's a privilege.

Because if I submit my resume for jobs
and they see UFT, they're gonna rank it

a lot higher than if you say some other
smaller college or online learning.

And it's just a fact.

I am also super fortunate that I
was able to get internships every

summer that I was in university.

Some of those might not have been
your traditional internship, but I

learned how to talk about them in
ways that showed what I learned and

how I apply them to my next job.

One, my first ever internship was
between first and second year,

and I got it through a network.

Like I got the introduction
through a network.

Actually my cousin saw a
posting in a Facebook group.

She was on, sent it to me.

And the role was that a
software engineering intern in

a company in Java, Indonesia.

And I went, it wasn't
your traditional job.

The only other developer on
the team did not speak English.

And it was him, me and the founder.

And so it was a lot of really
learning how to do things that I.

Luckily I could figure out the code.

It was learning how to communicate
and work with the team.

That became super helpful when
I applied for Amazon as my, the

next year for that internship.

Or maybe it was two years later,
because I remember distinctly sharing

that story with the interviewer
and he just started laughing and

then wrote like a massive check.

Like I saw him physically do a
massive check mark kind of thing,

and that helped me get that job.

And so I, super lucky to
have that confidence from an

early age and then get these.

And I wanna be very clear here.

I say luck.

But a lot of this was hard earned as
well, 'cause a lot of women, and I, I

need to correct myself here as well.

A lot of women will use language.

Like, I was lucky to get this job.

No, I might've had privilege,
but I also earned the position

and I worked really hard in that.

So for any of the women listening out
there, any of the minority groups, anyone

who falls into any category really, where
you feel like you're struggling, you

have that power and that ability to,
like you, you can work and I'm trying

to say this in a good way without, I
think I'm going about it the wrong way.

You have earned the position
that you're at right now.

So don't let anyone ever come and
tell you, oh, you lucked into it.

Somebody else should have earned it, or
someone else deserved it better than you.

That's not true.

From there, because I had great
companies like Amazon and eventually

Microsoft and Square on my resume.

I'm fortunate to say like even during
Covid, and I think to some extent even

now, I do get recruiters reaching out
and being like, Hey, we want you or

you know, like I'll get the standard
email from Google every year being

like, Hey, we wanna interview you.

Come join us.

And very flattering.

At one point in my life, that
was exactly what I wanted today.

It's not what I want anymore.

That has been my journey.

I know that's not everyone's journey.

I just wanna be very transparent
on how I answer this.

I think for a lot of women who
especially grew up in North

America, that's not the case.

You are kind of conditioned,
actually I don't even wanna

pigeonhole it to North America.

A lot of women are not encouraged
to do Math or to do these problem

solving things at a younger age.

You're not given some of those
confidence building things from a

younger age unless it's about beauty
or being cute and things like that,

which helps you build confidence in
other aspects of your life, but maybe

not in the career side of things.

And that's where a lot
of these mishaps happen.

The same way I corrected myself
during our conversation just

now with the luck conversation.

That's something I actively do with every
single person and every single woman I

speak with when they share their story.

I was at a conference, a women,
software engineering conference,

and there were five of us speaking,
and I was the last one to go.

And instead of explaining who I
was, I remember telling each of

them, the four of you just used
the word luck saying, you're lucky.

You got the scholarship to come here.

You're lucky that your school is
covering the cost to come here.

You're lucky that you got
accepted into X, Y, and Z.

No, you're not lucky you earned that.

The amount of work it takes to
apply, like anyone can apply for

that scholarship, not everyone does.

And so a lot of it is just like
really trying to rebuild women's

confidence in themselves, and I think
that translates really well into my

goal and my vision with HypeDocs,
which is, I want people, and it's

not just about women, it's people.

I want people to rebuild their
confidence in themselves and to

remember, yes, the world is shitty.

There's a lot of things
going on right now.

The job market sucks.

The economy sucks.

It's unreliable.

You know, X, Y, and Z.

I could go on, but there
are things in your control.

And you can celebrate your small wins and
those small wins turn into bigger wins.

And let's use that to rebuild your
confidence and let's use that to help

you get or build the life that you want.

And that's sort of the reason that
I'm so passionate about getting

HypeDocs to work in some capacity.

Prateek Panda: That is amazing, Aashni.

Thank you so much for sharing
all of that in so much detail.

One last question before I let you go.

You mentioned a little bit about your
ability to see forward a little bit.

We are recording this at a time
when we are potentially at the

peak of a global trade war.

I'm hoping it's the peak and it gets
better from here, but you never know.

What are you seeing happen over
the next three to five years.

You could answer this more specifically
to HypeDocs or your space, but

generally, what has been your
reading of how all of this is gonna

shape out over the next five years?

Aashni Shah: I don't want anyone coming
back to me in five years and being

like, you guessed this and you were so
wrong, so please don't do that anybody..

There so many trends.

You can look at right now.

Some are scary, some are exciting.

I'll start with the scary so we
can end on a more positive note.

Scary is obviously the markets
are extremely unreliable right

now as a business owner, as a
human just trying to buy milk.

I think I saw a story about eggs
in the US costing like $5 or $8

or something, which is insane.

Because if you can't predict what your
general cost of living is and you're

a person on a lower income bracket
or like a tight income bracket, and

it's not just low income folks, there
are folks who might make a hundred

thousand dollars, but they've got debts
they're paying off their mortgage.

I don't wanna say a small violin
for anybody, but everyone is

struggling and, and most people
are struggling in some way.

It's really hard to predict how your.

Spending is what your monthly
spending should look like.

What happens with mortgage rates and
interest rates and all that stuff.

We saw that happen in a big
way in Covid where a lot of

this is not financial advice.

Nobody take this as financial advice,
but we saw a lot of this struggle

happen in Covid where the mortgage
rates dropped and then they suddenly

started rising up like crazy.

And here in Canada, quite a
few people were on variable

rates and it went from 0.2,

point like 1% to five, six, 7%.

And those are insane
changes to your spending.

And the reason I'm focusing on this
so much is, the first thing you

need to figure out as a human is
how am I going to be able to live?

And unfortunately, that really means how
do I afford to live with the conditions

I that are in control right now?

The other big issue.

Exactly.

Um, one of my favorite things my dad
taught me years ago was, it is really

hard to make your first million dollars.

It is really easy to
make your second million.

We might need to adjust
those numbers for inflation.

But the general idea there is when
you're making your first million,

you're still in survival mode.

Once you start, once you're out of that
and you're making your second million,

you're using your money to make more
money, and that becomes so much easier.

Yes, it's risky, but you are not in
survival mode anymore if you're smart

and strategic with how you do it.

So coming back to trends and what I
am, you know, seeing, there is a group

of women I'm in a WhatsApp group with,
and we had a long chat yesterday where

one of the girls asked, or one of the
women asked, can anyone give me tips

on data analytics as a profession?

My partner has spent the last two
and a half years going through the

education of data analytics and is
fortunately has a job, a good, steady

job that's paying him for that role.

But if you look at what that role is going
to look like in the next year, not even

five years in the next year, it's not
the traditional, right, a SQL statement.

If your company is still doing
traditional, write a SQL statement.

I would hop out and I would find
a different one, to be honest,

because they're not looking forward.

And the reason I'm highlighting that is,

if you look at the job market as
it is today, you're going to miss

out on what you actually need to
spend the next six months learning.

Yes, some amount of that should be
on analytics if that's your interest.

But there's so many other things that you
would need to prove or to show a hiring

manager that you are the best candidate
for the job and it's not gonna be your

junior entry level data analytics skills.

So how can you think about that and bring
that into the fold of what you are trying

to transition or change into your career?

I applaud her or, and anyone
else that's doing this.

'cause it's a huge thing right now.

It it, it's a necessary thing right
now because a lot of people have to

change their jobs, have to change
the way they think about living.

Conversation my partner and I had
today, which was the traditional nine

to five is not attractive anymore.

My partner literally said earlier today.

I was so happy before with just doing a
standard nine to five job and just writing

that through and retiring at some point.

I don't wanna do that anymore.

And part of that is 'cause I've
been showing him what these AI

tools can do with the coding
tools and building products.

And he sees what my lifestyle is
like with building my startup.

And some weeks I'll just be like,
I'm done and I'll watch TV for the

week or I'll travel for the week.

And I think that.

Being able to live and want to
live your life again and not be

a slave behind a desk 24*7, is
becoming a bigger trend right now.

So that's sort of the negative,
swinging into a more neutral.

And then from a positive perspective,
AI is obviously the really big topic and

I think we've done a lot, but I still
feel like we're scratching the surface.

Do I wanna see the iRobots
come and take over the world?

No.

Are we heading in that direction?

Probably.

But I think there's really positive
opportunities where you think about

medicine, where you think about
climate, where you think about how

do we solve these massive issues
that we've created in the world

in a scalable way or in a fiscally
responsible way, or in a sustainable way.

And that last part is the most
important because you can solve

something for one person, doesn't
mean it's gonna work for everybody.

So how can we do that to help everybody,
like with something as basic as food?

I will stop there for now
'cause I could go on, but

Prateek Panda: Thank you so much, Aashni,
for sharing all of that, for sharing

your journey, I throughout from your
childhood as well as your entrepreneurship

journey, but also so many different
perspectives around growing your career,

watching out for what's coming up next.

I thoroughly enjoyed the conversation
and I'm pretty sure, our listeners,

are gonna enjoy it as well.

Thank you so much for coming on the show.

Aashni Shah: No problem.

Thanks for having me and to everyone
tuning in, please don't come find

me in five years and quote this,
but definitely come and find me.

I'm always happy to chat.

Prateek Panda: That's amazing.

Thank you so much Aashni.

And that wraps up today's episode.

Before we sign off, I would like
to thank you for your support

and thanks for tuning in.

If you loved today's episode, then
don't forget to subscribe to this

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Be kind, be happy, challenge the norm.

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