Off to the Valley

Dexter Zhuang: I would start
with a question of what is your

goal by spending time in the U.S?

Is it because you want to hire U.S talent?

Is it because you want to do
a go-to-market, do a land and

expand in some segment of the
U.S market, for B2B software?

Is it because you want to
access U.S investors, right?

Prateek Panda: Hello, everyone, and
welcome to Off To The Valley, the show

where we uncover extraordinary stories
of individuals who've embraced change

and ventured into new territories.

I'm Prateek Panda, your host,
passionate about sharing tales

of resilience and exploration.

Today, we have the privilege
of speaking with Dexter Zhuang.

Dexter is the founder of Money Abroad, A
transformative media business empowering

professionals to build wealth overseas.

His journey is a testament to courage
and redefining success on his terms.

Dexter's path to entrepreneurship
took him from climbing the tech

career ladder to discovering a deeper
purpose beyond financial milestones.

His journey has inspired him to create
Money Abroad, a platform that has

gained significant traction and earned
acclaim from influential platforms

such as being featured among LinkedIn
Top Voice, FinCon, and others.

Through his journey, Dexter has challenged
conventional notions of financial

independence, embraced a holistic
approach that integrates work into

life, rather than striving for balance.

His story of personal growth
and professional evolution is

an inspiring example of pursuing
passion and authenticity.

Dexter, it's wonderful to have
you on the show and we're excited

to learn more about your journey.

Dexter Zhuang: Thanks so much
for having me on here Prateek.

I'm excited for our conversation.

Prateek Panda: Let's get started by
getting to know you a little bit more.

Tell me about Dexter as a kid.

As you were growing up.

Where did you grow up?

What was your background and
surroundings like and how that has

influenced you to be who you are today?

Dexter Zhuang: Absolutely.

So I'll start off with my parents.

My parents are both from Shanghai,
China, and they experienced

the communist revolution.

And afterwards, around the late eighties,
they, decided that they want to move

out of China for better opportunities.

So my dad was the first one
to actually move to Canada

and my mom followed shortly.

I was actually born in Canada and
then when I was five, we moved to

Michigan where I spent the rest
of my childhood and teenage years.

So in Michigan, it's very
much of a Midwestern culture.

So if you're not familiar with
the different parts of America.

A lot of people that I meet outside
of the U.S think of the U.S as like

a giant homogeneous culture, but
that could be further from the truth.

If you spend time in different
states in the U.S, you can see

different types of cultures.

So the Midwest culture is known
for being a little bit more down

to earth, a bit more humble, not
as out there as people you might

see from New York or, California.

So that's kind of the
environment that I grew up in.

With that said, after spending my
teenage years there, I really wanted

it to get out and, experience,
things outside of my Midwest suburb.

So I went to a out of state college.

I went to Dartmouth, which
is on the East coast.

And then afterwards, I started
experiencing more of what was

happening in Silicon Valley just
through very lucky relationships.

I met some entrepreneurs who
were spending time there.

So I interned there at Udemy and
then decided, okay, I got to join

this whole Silicon Valley thing.

This was the early 2010.

So Facebook had just IPO'd and
that was a very exciting time.

Prateek Panda: Dartmouth is a great
school to be at and do you think that

played an influential role in you?

eventually moving to Silicon Valley.

Dexter Zhuang: At the time when I went
to Dartmouth, I was maybe one of 10

people that I knew from my graduating
class out of about a thousand people who

chose to move to San Francisco that year.

It was not common because keep
in mind this was early 2010s.

It was just after the great recession
and yes, Facebook had just IPO'd but

I think there was still skepticism
of whether or not this tech boom

would be long lasting or if it was
just a short term kind of one off.

So most of my peers went into
consulting or financial services, your

typical kind of like high performing
professions and career tracks.

But for me, I was really excited about
what I saw when I was interning at

Udemy, the potential of working in a
small company making a big impact and

then working with some of the best and
brightest of our generation, meeting

amazing founders, like I remember as an
intern, I got to sit in on an, or just

be in a small group with Drew Houston
from Dropbox and also Dustin Moskovitz

from Asana because they just met with
interns and it was a very cool exposure.

So I felt like this seems way more
exciting to be here in this kind of

context, meeting all these interesting
people rather than spending time

pursuing financial services, which
is what my parents wanted me to do.

Prateek Panda: Okay.

Coming from Asian background myself
as well, I can understand the pressure

that Asian families can put on their
kids to follow a particular path.

But, hey, you are successful and you've
taken an unconventional path, and and

that's what this show is all about.

So tell me a little bit more
about your time in the Valley.

Did you have a good time?

How long did you spend in Silicon Valley?

Yeah, let's start there.

Dexter Zhuang: Absolutely.

I had a really great
experience in Silicon Valley.

Looking back on that chapter of my career.

I was there for about six years.

I just worked really hard, worked
my way up the career ladder.

I worked at a growth stage startup
called Creative Live right out of school.

And that eventually got acquired
by Fiverr, after I left.

And then I wanted to go somewhere
a little bit bigger to learn from

more of the best and brightest in
product management, because that

was the career path that I was on.

So I applied to a bunch of different
companies, got an offer from a

Dropbox on their growth, product
management team and joined then when

it was only six people, eventually
we scaled that team to over 70..

This was pre IPO so I also got to help
scale that business through IPO and it

was really unique to be there at that
point in time, because product life

growth, while you see that everywhere
now, that was still very new and kind

of mysterious at that point in time.

So I felt very fortunate to be
there at the ground floor, building

that product led growth business.

And I work primarily on the prosumer
side of the Dropbox business.

So at the time we called it Dropbox
Pro, eventually Dropbox Plus as well.

And that was a very cool experience.

I got to ship features that
drove millions in revenue.

Run tens of experiments that
impacted millions of people.

So I learned a lot about
myself at that point in time.

And after that Dropbox experience
kind of wrapped up after the IPO.

And I felt like, okay, I've
learned kind of everything I wanted

to learn from this experience.

I thought about what
else I wanted to do next.

And at that point of my career,
my focus was really on okay, I've

experienced a certain kind of things
I wanted to do, but what type of

company do I want to experience next?

What kind of life experience I wanted to
experience next because I had spent most

of my first six years working pretty hard,
like 50, 60 hours a week at these roles.

And what I decided for myself at that
point in time was that I actually

wanted to take a bit of time off.

I felt a little bit burned out from
that period and I wanted to explore and

see what else was out there, especially
outside of the U.S, given my immigrant

upbringing and through some childhood
high school experiences, I got some

exposure to people from outside of the
U.S and I was really curious about what

working outside the U.S might look like.

So at that point in time, I decided,
okay, I want to take some time off and

do some traveling and traveled across
Southeast Asia, Europe, and South America.

I did a one year travel sabbatical.

I actually, at that point in time,
gave up two offers from startups

that were my dream jobs at the time.

That was a, that's a tough decision.

But I'm grateful for the decision I made.

And after that traveling, I
liked Southeast Asia the best.

There was a lot of really interesting
things happening there both from

like a career perspective, the
tech industry was starting to boom.

This was the late 2010s and I wanted
to explore building a career there.

And from a lifestyle perspective, it also
gave me an opportunity to travel across

a new region and see different parts of
Vietnam, different parts of Indonesia.

Just experience a whole different
lens and my core values include

things like curiosity and adventure.

So working internationally was something
I was just always curious about.

Prateek Panda: That's amazing Dexter.

There are so many questions I want to
ask you from there, but first things

first, I want to get to the point where
we talk a little bit about the fact that

you're not in San Francisco anymore.

So where are you right now?

Why did you choose to move out of the US?

Dexter Zhuang: Absolutely.

So yeah, right now I'm in Mexico
city and my wife and I are spending

some time in Latin America.

I know that sounds a little bit weird.

Like you just talked about
Southeast Asia and Singapore.

Why are you in Mexico right now?

So I will do my best to explain.

In 2020, right before COVID, I moved
to Singapore, which is also a crazy

story because I almost basically got
Blocked at the border because of COVID.

So I barely got into the country by a
few days and I joined a Series A FinTech

startup in Singapore which focused
on Indonesia and was expanding to the

Philippines at that point in time called
Zenit and help them scale their product

team from 4 billion in transaction volume
to over 15 billion in transaction volume.

And I was there for about three years.

So up until the beginning of last year,
and that was my first time building

in an emerging market kind of context,
which is totally different from building

in a more mature market like the U.S.

But this is what I wanted.

I wanted to experience a new market and
a new challenge in this kind of context.

So that was at a high level
what happens in Singapore.

And the reason why my wife and I are
spending some time in the Latin American

region is because we also spent time
there in 2019 on this travel sabbatical

and loved our experience in the region.

We really were excited about learning
Spanish at that point in time.

It took a month, one month intensive,
and now we want to improve on that.

So we're actually trying to level
up our Spanish at the moment that I

want to gain some level of fluency.

My ideal would be to speak
in a professional context.

I had a professional opportunity
to work with a client recently, but

they were like Oh, you don't speak
fluent enough Spanish, so maybe not.

So I now have the chip on my shoulder.

So now I want to address that.

Prateek Panda: That's amazing.

It's funny that you said that Dexter,
because very recently I was telling a

friend of mine that I would want to learn
a new language, but I want to learn it in

a different way and not on like Duolingo.

I want to, for example, go to Portugal
and spend six months and learn from a

local language instructor, but at the
same time also experience local culture,

be in a smaller city or smaller town so
that I can experience true local culture

while also learning a new language.

And I think that's very interesting
when you try to learn a new

language and you are also trying
to correlate it with culture.

Something amazing comes
out of that, right?

I've not been able to do it yet, but
hopefully your journey is inspiring.

Hopefully, I'll get a chance
to do it sometime soon.

Dexter Zhuang: You totally should.

I think it's a very fun way to
learn languages because you end

up meeting people and you are more
motivated to build relationships.

So you learn Spanish for that purpose
instead of talking to Duolingo.

Prateek Panda: You can learn your
lessons from the previous day

at a coffee shop the next day.

Dexter Zhuang: Exactly.

Exactly.

Prateek Panda: Great.

So tell me this, you're in Mexico City.

I'm sure there are some things that
you love about being in Mexico City.

And then maybe there are some
things that you don't like

don't quite hit the right spot.

Are there any such things that
you miss from your time in

Silicon Valley or in Singapore?

Dexter Zhuang: That's a good question.

So when I was in Singapore, I think
one of the highlights of Singapore

is just how easy it is to get
around and how convenient it is.

If you haven't been to Singapore
before, Singapore is a travel

hub for Southeast Asia.

It has an incredible airport, the
Changi Airport, it's also incredibly

good with public transit and even the
roads are pretty sparse with cars.

So, I lived in Robertson Quay in
Singapore, which is kind of far away,

like if you look at a map, it looks
kind of far away from the airport,

but door to door, it probably took
15 minutes of a grab ride to get

from my apartment to Changi Airport.

And public transit was good enough
that I could walk to the metro

station in 10 minutes or less.

In Mexico City, and a lot of
LATAM countries, I think the

infrastructure is less developed.

So, while I live in a nice neighborhood
right now called, Roma Sur and walking

around is very easy and it's easy to
meet up with friends or colleagues here.

It's a bit harder to get to other parts
of the city because of that infrastructure

and traffic gets also really bad.

So that would be one big difference.

Prateek Panda: Do you miss anything
from a startup ecosystem or that

whole startup energy perspective?

Dexter Zhuang: That's a good question.

So I think there's, different dynamics
to the startup ecosystem in let's

say Silicon Valley, to Southeast
Asia, to Mexico and Latin America.

Here's just my observation.

I'd be curious to hear, you know, your
observation and other folks observations

around this, but working in Silicon
Valley, I noticed we're pretty advanced

in the way that the market is structured
and how we're thinking about things like

go to market, like there is a whole SMB
segment of the market that can leverage

product led growth motions, right?

That was what I was doing at Dropbox.

That's a little bit less common of a
go to market in let's say Southeast

Asia or Latin America for a number
of reasons and rightfully so.

Now Southeast Asia is less mature
of a tech and startup ecosystem.

But what's interesting is that it really
started picking up in the early 2010s.

And that culminated with companies
like Grab and Sea going public

just a couple of years ago.

So during that whole decade, I think
there was a lot of energy and a lot

of investment going into Startups and
governments were pushing out that as well.

For example Singapore had the NUS
which is one of the universities.

They had an overseas
college in Silicon Valley.

So students could actually
do a work exchange in Silicon

Valley through that university.

I worked with some colleagues
who went through that program

and that gave them exposure to
Silicon Valley really early on.

So certain Governments in that region
did a lot of work to try to absorb

that Silicon Valley DNA, or, at
least like import a lot of it and

learn as much as possible so that
they could grow homegrown talents.

Prateek Panda: That's amazing.

Another aspect I think as founders, it is
challenging to be an entrepreneur, right?

More often than not, you have difficult
days than you have great days.

So I feel like people say it's a
roller coaster, but it's still a

roller coaster journey, but you see
a lot more lows than you see highs.

And the highs can be really high,
but the lows can be pathetically low.

I've moved around a lot as well, and
I grew up in India, spent two years

in Singapore, moved to California for
six years, and I've been in Vancouver

the last year in Canada, and every
place is different in its own way,

but one of the essential things that
I feel is important to keep me sane

is some sense of community, right?

So you try to build a small network
of people that you can count on,

that you can meet more frequently,
that you can share and talk to.

How have you approached this
sort of element of community?

When you first moved to Singapore or when
you're now in Mexico City, how do you go

about finding that sense of community?

Dexter Zhuang: I totally agree.

Community is one of the most essential
parts of what keeps me fueled,

in terms of me as a person and of
course, as an entrepreneur or doing

business, I want to stay motivated.

So I would say when I first moved
to Singapore, I put in a lot of work

before I moved to identify people,
also I was doing a job search.

So I kind of killed two
birds with one stone here.

I was reaching out to a lot of
people who were in the tech industry,

who I thought were interesting.

So some of those people may have been
investors that I noticed were interesting.

Some of them were product managers
like me, and some of them were American

tech people from Silicon Valley who
moved to Singapore like me as well.

So I reached out to those
people and built relationships.

I made a couple of visits to Singapore
before my wife and I actually

moved there more permanently.

And that really helped, I think,
cultivate those relationships early on

even before I touched down on the ground.

Then, once I settled down into
Singapore, I could work on building

more relationships through like friends
of friends, or asking people, hey,

who else do you think I should meet?

And that helped me meet more people
and eventually become long term

friends with some of those people.

I approached Mexico City a little
bit differently because I had some

friends of friends already based
in Mexico City and that made it a

little bit easier to get started.

So I jump started my relationships
in Mexico City through those

existing relationships, and then
asking them again, Hey, who else

do you think I should talk to?

And then spending at least a few months
being more in the mode of saying yes to

everything instead of no to everything.

Prateek Panda: Yeah, I think
that's a key thing, right?

Like, the more you say yes to certain
things, especially when you're early

in a journey somewhere, it definitely
leads to a lot more opportunity

and things typically fall your way.

Before we talk more about where
to be based and stuff like that,

I have more questions on that.

Tell us a little bit more about
your current startup, Money Abroad.

Dexter Zhuang: Absolutely.

Money Abroad was something I
started earlier last year, and

I was just transitioning out of
Xendit at that point in time.

And the reason why I started Money
Abroad was I was getting experience

working in all these different countries,
like Singapore, and then also working

with companies in Indonesia and
Vietnam and, now in Latin America.

And like many high achievers, I
climbed that career ladder, but

while I was growing my career, I felt
like I was fumbling with my money.

Like, I was just getting confused
about what to do, especially

since I was moving around.

I wasn't quite clear on what my goals
were or what my strategies were.

So I chose a default path when I was in my
twenties of, okay, I hear a lot of people

talking about FIRE, which stands for
financial independence, retiring early.

That's become really, really
popular, especially on the internet.

And, I think it's actually a great
community, but for me, it just

turned out to be an awkward fit.

And the reason why that is, is
because it motivated me to achieve

certain net worth milestones.

And the more and more I did
that, then it kind of felt a

bit more empty and meaningless.

I felt afraid of, okay, what,
what do I do then if I'm not

achieving net worth milestones?

Isn't that the whole point
of personal finances.

So I talked to different friends facing
similar challenges, studied, the

master's on finances, managing money, also
things like, portfolio careers, fractional

work, small businesses, because I think
career is also a big aspect of money.

Because it also determines
things like your earnings.

And then I experimented with applying
those lessons to my own money path

and also entrepreneurial path.

So money abroad is a culmination of those
lessons and it's focused on helping high

performers design independent money paths.

It started with contents
and, especially a newsletter.

We,ve grown to over 6,000
subscribers and over 25,000

followers across social channels.

And, more importantly, I've also just
changed my perspective on finances.

It's less about, okay, I got
to achieve a certain net worth

milestone and it's more about.

Okay, there's a lifestyle that I want
to have and then a certain type of

business that I would like to build
and what are the money things that

I need to consider to get there.

Prateek Panda: That's amazing.

But hey, hey, looks like you finally
became a financial consultant, a financial

advisor, making the parents happy.

Dexter Zhuang: Oh man!

Yeah, don't tell them that.

Prateek Panda: So it's interesting.

I feel this pain because I've moved around
a lot and I like moving around a lot.

A lot of times I feel like
I'm generally good with my

money, but every time you move.

I think this is difficult for
everyone to understand, unless you've

moved around a lot, like you don't
have a 401k contribution anymore.

You move to a different
country and that stops.

Do you do something else?

So how do you plan retirement?

Where do you put most of your money?

If there is not one place you can really
call home, and you really don't know

where you're going to be based, right?

So I think it gets complicated very soon.

I think I'm going to spend some time with
money abroad and sign up and learn more

as well, because I'm definitely feeling
some gaps in my money strategy as I

move around a lot and figure stuff out.

What are some of the things that
people are experiencing as they

work with you at money abroad?

What do they learn?

How is it changing their lives?

What did they come back and tell you?

Dexter Zhuang: Great, great topic
that you mentioned earlier on, okay,

you're, you're moving around a lot.

And then if you're thinking long
term, then where do you save?

Where do you invest?

I think that is a reflection of a
changing attitude towards work and

towards how we want to even live, right?

People are more interested in moving
outside of their home country and spending

time in new countries than ever before,
but maybe immigration or tax systems

have not caught up to that growing trend.

So one of the things that I've
been spending more time in just

myself because I'm an American,
then I have to understand.

Okay, I'm from a American perspective,
what can I do with my home country,

kind of retirement accounts, can I
still invest in my American brokerage?

And fortunately the short answer is yes.

Those accounts that I have created
before left can still be used.

However, that does vary.

Yeah.

Come country by country and each country
may have different policies around that.

But one of the things that I've learned
is there's also a group of people who

ask the question, okay, how do I, as
a self made person build some wealth?

I think that's the
question that I get a lot.

And I think it was Nick Moduli
who posted recently on LinkedIn

about this which I liked a lot.

He said, he observes that the people
that he knows who build self made

wealth generally do it in three ways.

It's either through really
long term investing, which is,

you invest for over 30 years.

You hit it big with like a IPO
or an exit, or you develop a high

income and a high savings rate.

And when I reflect on all the people
that I know who were not born into

money, it feels like that does resonate.

And that does seem like it
pans out in my circle as well.

So that naturally lends to the point of
if you start with that success case and

work backwards from that success case,
then you learn a few things, right?

You learn that, one of the
strategies is if you're in your

early career, then growing your
income and savings is probably one

of the one of the biggest levers.

I think as a founder, Obviously,
you don't want to sacrifice all

of your business profits on that.

But, I think that's something
to be mindful of is because the

first 10 years of your savings can
make an outsized impact, in terms

of your long term investing, if
you're growing your income quickly.

And tip number two there is
then to continue investing

into low fee investments.

So that's why I prefer, this is
not financial advice, I'm not

giving any financial advice.

I'm not a financial advisor
or professional on that note.

So do put out that caveat, but I prefer
a long term index funds, where it's low

fees because fees turns out to be one of
the biggest and most expensive mistakes

I've seen people make, especially people
living overseas because they tend to work

with, either wealth managers at banks
or wealth managers at wealth management

firms who, may sign them up for a fund
that sounds good on the outset, but

actually charges a pretty high fee
and they just didn't pay attention.

So those are some examples of tips.

The last one I would say is the one I
learned most personally in the last year

to design your own money path, right?

To, start with your ideal kind
of lifestyle and think from a

psychological perspective, what makes
you feel good in using your money on?

Is it building your business?

Is it, spending money
on your family, friends?

Is it buying a really beautiful
house in the mountains?

What do you enjoy the most?

And then use that to decide how much money
do you need to allocate to certain things.

Prateek Panda: That makes sense.

Tell me this, you've worked with a
lot of founders, What is one common

money mistake that founders are making?

Dexter Zhuang: One, one common money
mistake that I've at least seen

the founders in my circle make.

I had a conversation with a founder
friend recently, and for him, during

the I think he started his startup
before COVID, but then during

COVID, there was a rough patch.

He was a venture backed founder.

He raised from some of the
top names in Silicon Valley.

And he, for the good of the business,
decided, I'm not going to pay myself

any salary, like it's a hard time,
I'm going to just grind it out.

And what ended up happening is
that he ended up having to exit his

business on not the best terms, and
he didn't end up winding up with

a whole lot of savings from that.

And that also impacted his optionality
for what he could do afterwards.

So I think for founders who are in a
venture back kind of context, I would

just watch out for how much are you
paying yourself even during the hard

times, because even after, you can
debate this, I think there's different

points of view on this, but if
something doesn't go according to

plan, then what do you end up having?

Prateek Panda: That's interesting.

I think that's been consistent with a
lot of founders that I've spoken to also.

And although the caveat is we don't
usually talk a lot about money, I

think that's another problem, right?

Like, as founders, you have a group
of other founders that you talk to

more frequently, and you talk about a
lot of problems, around the business,

around growth, around raising money
or whatever, but rarely do we talk

about how poorly we might be doing
ourselves with our own personal finance.

And I think it's consistent for
a lot of founders, at least in

the early part of their journey.

I'm not talking about founders who start
their companies, maybe later on in their

career, where they've established some
sort of a financial cushion, but, a lot

of founders who start young, whose first
job is doing a startup and, more often

than not, you're so focused, Rightly
so, so focused on the business that you

rarely think about your own personal
finance unless something goes wrong,

which is situations like COVID and other
things that are environmental factors,

which we have limited control over.

And when those situations hit us,
that's when we start thinking, oops.

Dexter Zhuang: One of my favorite
investment ideas is margin of safety.

So, Warren Buffett talks about
margin of safety a lot when he's

making an investment decision.

He's looking for a margin of safety in
that, investment decision, which just

means that, if, let's say he buys this
asset, maybe it's a stake in a company

and, his stake, value drops by over 30
percent or 20%, is he still going to be

able to make returns from that eventually?

And that's something that he builds
into his own investment framework.

And I like that a lot.

Margin of safety is something that
I've tried to factor into not just

my investment decisions, but also my
career and business decisions as well.

Prateek Panda: I think
that's great advice.

Talking about margin of safety, a lot
of founders are trying real hard to move

to the U.S, set up their business there.

They might already have a business
there, but they are physically

not based in the U.S yet.

Immigration can be tough.

I've been on that side
of the spectrum as well.

You've chosen, I would say,
the rather unconventional path

of having grown up in the U.S.

Worked in Silicon Valley, but now
chose to move out of Silicon Valley,

move out of the U.S, as such, what if
somebody is struggling to be in the U.S

or, trying to think if there are other
alternatives, what are a few advices

that you could give that helps people
figure a path outside of the U.S?

Dexter Zhuang: I would start
with a question of what is your

goal by spending time in the U.S?

Is it because you want to hire U.S talent?

Is it because you want to do
a go-to-market, do a land and

expand in some segment of the
U.S market, for B2B software?

Is it because you want to
access U.S investors, right?

I think there's a number of different
goals and I think you can be very specific

about those particular goals, and there
may be alternatives to actually moving

to the U.S and establishing yourself in
the U.S that help you reach those goals,

perhaps a bit slower, or perhaps not
in a perfect kind of way, but they get

you maybe 80 percent of the way there.

So, for example, perhaps you are
interested in, accessing U.S investors

in a particular city, is that something
that you need to be based there or can you

just fly in every once in a while to go
meet those investors that is debatable,

but I've seen some founders succeed by
doing the fly in approach versus the

you're based there kind of approach.

Just off the top of my head, I'm
thinking like, Canva and Atlassian

did not start off in the U.S, right?

They started off from Sydney,
Australia, which is like the furthest

country from the U.S as well.

Prateek Panda: That's great advice.

Before we wrap up, Dexter, I have
a rather fun question for you.

If you had the chance to spend some time
on a lunch or a dinner with someone,

anybody, it could be anybody in the
world, who would you pick and why?

Dexter Zhuang: Oh, man.

That's a really good question.

I think, right now, I'm very
curious about, we just talked

about Warren Buffett, so I'll
put Warren Buffett on that list.

I think he would be really interesting to
spend some time on, especially because,

this past year, Charlie Munger passed
away, his business partner, and it feels

like there's a whole lot of stories and,
legends around Berkshire Hathaway and

how, how they built that, that business,
I'd be very curious to learn that

Prateek Panda: Yeah.

And I think talking about Warren Buffet,
one thing, a lot of us don't realize is,

is he made a lot of his money towards the
last 15, 20 years of his life rather than

in the early days and I think that's also
a big lesson for all of us in patience.

So you have to stay consistent and be
patient and watch your money grow by

making the right investments of course.

But I think a lot of times we make
life more difficult for ourselves

because we need things sooner.

And more often than
not, we need things now.

So that's where it becomes a struggle.

And I think that's one of the things that
I keep reminding myself every time Warren

Buffett comes up is just be patient.

There's a long way to go and
definitely a lot to learn

Dexter Zhuang: Absolutely.

And I think someone interviewed
Charlie Munger before he passed, rest

in peace and asked him the question,
what is one thing that you miss or

that you wish you had that you don't
have and for him, it was his youth.

He missed the ability to go
and be physically active.

I can't recall which exact activity.

I think he liked fishing.

So he wanted to spend more time
doing those kinds of activities.

Prateek Panda: Actually, since you
mentioned that, right, I want to ask

you one last question about sabbatical?

I have a friend from my last company.

He was also a product leader who
is currently doing a six month

sabbatical in South America.

And I've been following his journey
on Twitter and it's exciting, right?

And I'm seeing a lot more people
take the plunge, take small breaks.

Do you have, in your experience, having
spent a year in sabbatical, do you

think there is a particular formula?

The reason I'm asking this is a lot of
people think that a sabbatical is a good

idea, but are never able to take one.

And then Lenny Rachitsky in one of his
interviews mentioned how he thinks that he

started off taking a six month sabbatical.

Which eventually became a 12 month
sabbatical and from there launched Lenny's

newsletter and it's hugely popular,
it's built a community around the world,

thousands of people meet up every month
physically as well as online, and learn

so much from that community, right?

And maybe it would not have happened if
he wouldn't have taken that sabbatical.

So in your experience, is there
something you can tell people to

encourage them to take a sabbatical?

Dexter Zhuang: For sure.

I'll share why a sabbatical, and then I'll
share maybe one tip for the sabbatical.

So, I would encourage everyone
listening to consider a sabbatical

at different let's say milestones in
your career and your life journey.

The reason why is because when we're
really busy, we don't have a whole

lot of time to fully process the
events that preceded us, whether

that's building our startups,
whether that is life experiences.

And because of that, we are not
processing fully also our own emotional

experiences around those things.

We're not processing fully
the lessons learned and the

insights around those things.

And one of the beautiful parts of a
sabbatical is you get to carve out space

to intentionally get those insights
and to learn more about yourself.

So that, that's how I
felt about my sabbatical.

That was really an amazing opportunity
to learn more about myself.

The tip for that I have is that
I'm someone who is very structured.

I would say one of my strengths
is structured thinking and I apply

that to my work and to my career.

But on my sabbatical, what I learned
is I had to let go of that structure

and the most valuable part of the
sabbatical was actually letting go

of a set calendar and set schedule.

And after, it takes about four to five
weeks, I would say, so my tip here is to

be unstructured and then do that for at
least four to five weeks preferably six,

and you will just notice changes with the
way that you behave, the way you feel,

the things you even think about, and it's
just very interesting because you are the

same person, but you are experiencing a
totally different dimension of yourself.

Prateek Panda: That is amazing, Dexter.

I think it's consistent with one of the
talks that Lenny was giving and it's

consistent with a couple of people who
I know who took short sabbaticals as

well, where I think it easily takes you
Six weeks, sometimes Eight weeks to get

to a stable state where your mind is now
able to rest because we are so used to

running according to our calendar, our
schedules, whether it's work, personal,

life just keeps going on that you need
that much time to really slow down.

And I think Lenny also in one of
his interviews tells that a six

month sabbatical is ideal because
three months is what typically most

tech companies would let you take.

without causing a lot of concern.

I think that is also a place of privilege.

Not a lot of people have that privilege
to take a three month sabbatical and

still come back to a job waiting for them.

So if you have that
privilege, definitely take it.

But three months flies by with you
just trying to come to a state of

calm and peace before which you
can start even thinking like, okay.

What next?

Or what do I want to experience?

And so on.

But it's amazing that you got a
chance to spend an entire year.

I'm hoping for a sabbatical sometime soon.

So let's see when that happens.

But thank you so much, Dexter,
for spending time with us.

It was an amazing conversation.

Lots of valuable advice around where
to be based, why the U.S is not

the only place to be in, financial
advice for founders, and sabbaticals.

So I think we've had a
very good conversation.

Thank you for spending time with us.

Dexter Zhuang: Thanks so much for having
me Prateek, loved our conversation.

It was super fun.

Prateek Panda: And that
wraps up today's episode.

Before we sign off, I would like
to thank you for your support

and thanks for tuning in.

If you loved today's episode.

Then don't forget to subscribe to this
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Be kind, be happy, challenge the norm.

I'll see you folks again for the next one.