Off to the Valley

Bob Moesta: Most people are spending 90
percent of their time doing work they hate

for the 10 percent of the work they love.

And if we can just change that
ratio to like 50, 50, you don't

even know you're working anymore.

Prateek Panda: Hello and welcome back
to Off to the Valley, where we dive

into the journeys of innovators, shaping
the future of business and technology.

I'm your host Prateek Panda.

And today, we have

an incredible guest who has reshaped
the way companies think about product

development and consumer behavior.

Bob Moesta.

Bob is an innovator, entrepreneur, the co
creator of the Jobs to be Done framework,

a methodology that has been embraced by
companies like Apple, Intercom, GitLab,

to just name a few in order to build
scalable consumer centric products Over

his career, Bob has worked on more than
3500 products spanning across software,

consumer goods and even defense systems.

He's co authored the Demand Side
Sales 101, Learning to Build and

also teaches at Harvard, MIT,
Kellogg's management schools.

Bob, I could just go on about you and

Bob Moesta: Just stop.

Like it's, this is where you, you
don't really keep track of that stuff.

You just do what you do.

And then all of a sudden somebody comes
back and reads it to you and go like that.

That's like, I don't understand all
that, but it's true, but it's just

like, I'm just a regular guy, man.

I'm from Detroit.

So it's like, just, I
love to build things.

I've been building
things for over 40 years.

My mom would tell you, I was an
engineer out of the womb, breaking

things by the time I was three.

So fixing things by the time I was five.

So I've like always had that kind of
building engineering, creating thing in

me, not so much art, but I'm moving more
towards art as I get older, for sure.

Prateek Panda: That is great, Bob, it's
a pleasure to have you on the show.

And there's so much to talk to you about.

Let's start with understanding
Bob a little bit more, right?

You told a brief.

thing about your inclination towards
engineering and breaking things.

What was childhood like for Bob?

And what were some of the
formative things that you

remember?

Bob Moesta: Yeah.

So, I started building things,
like I built a parachute, right.

And I tried to make it work and I
broke both my legs and was in a coma.

Oh, no.

So I've had three close head brain
injuries before I was seven years old.

I can't read and I can't write.

And I think of about it as
the greatest gift I ever got.

Because what it did is it forced me
to learn in a very different way.

Because I can't read, I can't just
pick up a book and learn something.

And so think of it as like what I had
to master was asking people questions

because the questions were the basic,
basically they were the things that

actually got people to talk about what
really happened and what really worked.

And so I've been asking
questions my whole life.

I was that little kid who
asked a thousand questions.

And my mom would basically say, if she
allowed somebody to come within 10 feet

of me, I was allowed to talk to them.

And so it was one of those things where
I was just a sponge, but I couldn't

actually learn this regular way.

And so ultimately that's, that was kind
of my superpower was being able to talk

to people and empathize with people
and understand where they came from.

And so school was very hard.

Though I'm probably a savant in
some cases cause my primary language

is math, which is relationships
and patterns and things like that.

And so, I can remember equations.

I can remember very elaborate things,
but I can't actually see words

that are seven letters or smaller.

Prateek Panda: Hmm.

Bob Moesta: And I feel like the struggling
moments were the things that enabled me

to kind of reach for something better.

And so every time I struggle and I
struggle today and when I struggled

before, I was like, Oh, I was looking
forward to it because I always think about

the moment I acknowledged the struggle
was the moment I started to solve it.

And so ultimately I knew I was
always going to be learning

something new if I could do that.

Prateek Panda: That is amazing, right?

Like to be able to think in that
direction, have you over the

course of time built sort of a
framework, that you apply sort of

quickly.

Bob Moesta: I have probably 25
different frameworks that I use.

I pull them out all the time.

I've been teaching them.

So like the book, Learning to
Build, I just, I wrote that book.

I don't know.

So how does a dyslexic write a book?

Well, with a lot of people around
them to help them put their

thoughts, my thoughts into words.

And so they basically, I had
ghostwriters and interviewers.

And if you read my books, it sounds
like, I'm speaking it because

that's usually what happens.

I just speak them.

And then people throw it, we transcribe
it and put it into, to a book, but

all of those things and methods.

And I talk about the five essential
skills of innovators and entrepreneurs.

And, you know, one is empathetic
perspective, two is causal structures,

three is uncovering demand, four
is prototyping to learn, and five

is learning how to make trade offs.

And if you master those five
skills, my belief is you will be an

unbelievable innovator at any level
of innovation you want to work?

That is amazing.

One of the frameworks, that's been
pretty popular and I see being

quoted around a lot is the Jobs to
be Done framework you came up with.

you tell us a little bit
more about that framework?

Yeah.

So part of it starts with the
fact, this is like as an engineer,

I would get, a bunch of research
from recent marketing research to

tell me about what we should build.

And ultimately I could never
understand what they talked about

because I couldn't read the report.

And so I always asked it to talk to 10
people so I could actually get a feel

for what they were really talking about.

And out of those 10 interviews, I would
get so much information that ultimately

I would be able to kind of put it into
like, Oh, we need to go build this.

And I had done that for probably
almost 10 years where we just did

it, but I didn't tell anybody.

Then finally what happened is, people
kept saying like, how are you doing this?

And so we slowed it down and
we turned it into a method.

And then I, talked to Clay
Christianson about it.

And he basically said, we need
to turn this into a theory.

And so we worked on that
for 20 years, if you will.

And ultimately it came out in a book
called competing against luck, but

all, you know, it's just, it's the
way I think it's sad to say, but this

is how my children think, because
this is how I would think with them.

And so ultimately it's teachable and
I'm able to pass it down and I've got

colleagues I work with and startups.

I start work with the kind of past
this kind of thinking down, which is.

Coming at it from the customer
side and understanding the demand

side, and it's not like how to sell
something, but how do people buy

things and how do we get in their way?

And what causes them to say today's
the day they need your product?

And ultimately, what are they going to
stop using because they buy your product?

And so it's a fundamental way to look
at the world, but it's not looking

at the world through your product.

It's looking at it through the eyes of
your consumer and what are they doing?

What help do they want and where
do they want to go and how does

your product help them get there?

Prateek Panda: So I want to dive
a little bit on a couple of things

that you said here first is about
that buying behavior, right?

One of the core ideas of the Jobs to
be Done framework is that you suggest

people don't just buy products, they hire
them to solve a problem in their lives.

Help me understand what changes when
you look at it from this perspective,

where people are not just buying
products, but hiring products.

Bob Moesta: So, lot of people end up
trying to talk about, what I would

say is the greatest lie I was told
when I was in engineering school

was build it and they will come.

And what I learned was that's
just a crock of shit, right?

It just, it's not true.

And so I built some products where
it did, and I'd go to talk to

customers and they'd say, Oh yeah,
I want this and this and this.

And then you go build it.

And then you show it to them.

They're like, no, not really
that I'd like something out.

And so you keep just going round
and round and you realize like, They

don't really even know what they want.

And so how do you actually
start to tease out this thing?

And so part of this is, is being able
to take a step back and understand that

one is people are creatures of habit.

They would rather do the same thing over
and over again than do something new.

And so if that's the case, what
causes people to do new things.

I call it the struggling moment is the
seed for all innovation because it's the

moment where you realize like, this is
not good enough, this is not working.

I got to do something else and you have
no idea what to do, but you know what

you're doing right now doesn't work.

And so by understanding kind of the
process that people go through, the

struggling moment that what we call
passive looking and then active looking

and then deciding and making trade
offs and then choosing and having

expectations and then basically figuring
out the role of satisfaction in that.

And so I've been studying
people for over 30 years.

Maybe 40 years now and just understanding,
you know, kind of what causes people

to make a new change in their life.

And so I have a new book called Job
Moves, and I've been studying people

for 15 years of what causes people
to say, today's the day they're going

to leave their job in one play at one
company and go to another company.

Because the reality is,
employees hire companies more

than companies hire employees.

And so you start to realize like.

What causes somebody to choose
today is the day I'm going to leave

this company and go somewhere else.

And it's about progress.

It's about basically hiring
another company to help them make

the progress they want to make
for the reasons that they have.

And they're willing to give
up some trade offs in order to

basically make that progress.

And so it's the same fundamental premise
for your product is, you know, nobody,

there's actually no new consumption.

People have to stop doing something
to start using your product.

And so what are people going
to fire to figure that out?

And so it's all that kind of thinking
wrapped around it to understand what

we call the demand side of the world.

Before we talk about the supply
side of what we can build.

Prateek Panda: So let's talk a little
bit about identifying what your customer

has to fire in order to hire you.

And a lot of founders struggle with really
defining what their competitor product is.

Usually they just look at other products
in the same category, but like I've told

this to so many people, like if you've
If you take Netflix as an example,

their competitor, sure, in some ways,
also other streaming platforms like an

Amazon Prime Video or Disney and so on.

But their true competition is,
what do people do with their time?

Their competition is, are people going
out for, you know, a hike or whatever.

Like if they have time, you want
them to sit and watch Netflix.

Bob Moesta: So the way I think
about it is there's three

resources we have as human beings.

We have money, we have
time, and we have knowledge.

And ultimately, sometimes those
resources become the desired outcome.

So I'll spend money and time to get
knowledge, but I'll also spend knowledge

to get money so I can get time.

And so you start to realize they're
very, very interdependent on that.

But the first way to think about
it, and I'll give you a very simple

example, is most people would think
that Snickers, the candy bar, and Milky

Way Compete with each other, right?

They're both candy bars.

They're both made with chocolate.

They're both sit next to
each other in the aisle.

They both, but when you look at how
they're consumed and when they're

consumed, and when do people say
today's the day I need a Snickers

and boy, no, I need a Milky way.

They actually don't compete at all because
the Snickers takes, it takes into account.

The fact is one is typically
you've missed the last meal.

Your stomach is growling,
your blood sugar is dropped.

You're literally have some work
in front of you to get to do.

And the reality is, but you don't
want to spoil the next meal.

And you don't have time to go get a meal.

It's like, I just need to mainline
something to stop my stomach so I

can focus and get something done.

Right.

Well, it turns out it competes with a
Red Bull and a coffee and a sandwich

and some of these other things, right?

But if you look at a Milky Way,
it actually is typically eaten in

a situation where they're alone.

Something emotional just happened.

Something good might have happened,
something bad might have happened, but

there's something emotional about it.

And typically, you're gonna realize that
it, the Milky Way competes with a ice

cream and a brownie and a glass of wine.

In some cases a run.

And so you start to realize, like,
even though they look like they compete

with each other at the moment of
choice in the moment of consumption,

they're actually completely different.

And so this is where I believe that
consumers have a very different set

of categories than industries do.

Industry categories are set usually
by financial community, so you

understand the cost structure and
you understand the ability to make

loans and do all that other stuff.

And so they look for companies that have
similar business models, but they're

not necessarily the same customers.

And so we've tried to extrapolate
that supply side notion of

categories into the consumer side.

And most consumers don't
think in categories like that.

Prateek Panda: Yeah.

Talking about consumers, right?

If a founder had to build
this theory deeper and really

understand their buyer better.

And they had only, here's 10 interviews
I can do with my strategic customers,

how should those interviews be structured
that you get the right value out of

Bob Moesta: So the first thing is to
realize like nobody, at least as far as I

can tell, nobody can predict the future.

So going to talk to your potential
customers or new, basically people who

haven't bought about what they want.

It's like I built houses, right?

If I went to talk, I talked to people
about, you know, what house do you want?

They'd say, Oh, I want
stainless steel appliances.

I want a big yard.

I want, they want it all.

But they haven't made all the
trade offs required to do it.

So what I do is instead of talking
to people who want to buy my product,

I talked to the last 10 people who
bought my product and say, what in the

world happened that said you today's
the day you're going to get rid of

what, and you're going to hire us.

Like, and so by talking to those 10
customers who are already customers.

And to be honest, I usually wait
90 days because there's a honeymoon

period where they're kind of
like, Oh my God, I love this.

Or, Oh my God, I hate this.

And so you want to get a little bit
past that, but ultimately you talk

to 10 people who just recently bought
your product and you start to learn

the things that have to happen to them.

To make them ready to buy your product.

What struggling moment did they have?

What are the things that they
actually kind of went through?

What were the competitors
that they kind of looked at?

And what you start to realize is
some of the biggest competitors that

most companies have for software
products are literally the intern.

And, Excel.

And most people don't think
about that as the competitor.

And if you just got to be better
than Excel, it's all of a sudden the

product actually doesn't have to be
the be all to end all, it literally

just has to be better than Excel,
which is actually not that hard.

Prateek Panda: Yeah,

Bob Moesta: And so you start to realize,
that gives you kind of a really good,

uh, kind of line of sight to figure out
what to build, what features you need and

what are the next things you need to add?

Prateek Panda: Got it.

You know, let's switch gears a little bit.

You're coming up with a
new book called Job Moves.

It's a little bit different from some
of the other stuff that you've done.

Tell us a little bit about this new book.

Bob Moesta: So, I met a gentleman by
the name of Ethan Bernstein in 2009.

Clay Christian was his academic
advisor for his PhD at Harvard.

And he is in the
organizational behavior side.

And he basically came and
saw me do a interview process

around how people buy products.

And he realized that at some point
in time, like this is the same

conversation I'd be should be having
with my students about helping them

figure out their career because I
just left the coaching situation.

And I should have asked, like, why now?

What are you looking at?

Like all these questions.

And so he approached
me to talk about that.

And so, over the last 15 years, we've
done over a thousand interviews.

We talked to people who recently
switched jobs and we did it from

everybody who switched from Chipotle
to McDonald's to, you know, a lawyer,

a partner in a law firm to becoming
a judge and everything in between.

And ultimately trying to look at what
are the causal factors that cause

people to say, today's the day I need to
basically go find something different.

And out of it, we, discovered, I think
is like 26 or 27 pushes and pulls or

like actions that have to happen to them
and outcomes that they're hoping for.

And they actually collapsed down into four
unique patterns that help you describe

kind of where do you, what's your next
move of where you want to go next.

Right, and out of that, then we
built a process to help you kind of

understand kind of a little bit who
you are, what you're about, what you're

good at, what you suck at, what gives
you energy, what sucks your energy.

So you can start to describe kind
of like where you want to be.

And what you start to realize
is most people are spending 90

percent of their time doing work

they hate for the 10 percent
of the work they love.

And if we can just change that
ratio to like 50, 50, you don't

even know you're working anymore.

And so part of it is helping.

So the book is written not from
an employer perspective but from

an employee perspective, because a
billion people a year switch jobs.

And almost, like half of them end
up in a position where they don't

actually like the job and they know
it within the first three weeks.

And so how do we actually help people
make better decisions about that?

And so it's this aspect of how many people
really need to know Jobs to be Done.

Maybe a hundred thousand, but
how many people need help,

basically finding a better job.

Oh, about a billion.

And so what I've been doing now is
basically kind of switching it from

trying to teach people the method
to literally building products

and services wrapped around it.

So it helps people make
progress in their life.

Cause ultimately, that's the main
objective of any product is to help

people figure out how to get through
a struggling moment and make progress.

Prateek Panda: Yes, that's amazing.

If I switch that from an employer's
lens or especially because so many of

our listeners are startup founders.

One of the things that, I mean, it's
true for any organization of any size.

It's a difficult time when people leave,
you have to reorganize and so on, but I

think it hits smaller startups a lot more.

As founders, is there something
they can identify certain patterns?

Bob Moesta: So there's two things.

So for example, I started two new
startups in 2024, and what I would

say is the first thing I did is I used
the books to actually recruit my co

founders and the first two employees.

So it's to understand what drives
them and what energies they need

and what environment they need to
be in to be ridiculously successful.

The other part is I've been using it
to run my current, I have a design

studio and in that design studio, I've
been using it to basically ask people

about what do they struggle with?

What does progress mean for them?

And every year we sit down and talk about
what does progress mean and what's missing

from what they think is part of their job.

So I have a series of pushes that
we hear about, like, have you been

disrespected or, you know, are you bored?

Or basically you're, you know,
you don't see a place to go.

It's like, there's these different things.

And so part of it is helping people
kind of identify those things.

And then, for example, one of the people I
work with came from the educational space,

and she really misses being with students.

And so it's that notion of
mentoring and being with students

and doing that kind of thing.

And so one of the things we talked about
as well, you know, let's go find a side

gig that you can do, go do this with.

And she says, well, I'll become
a big sister for somebody.

I'm like, that's perfect.

And so as she does that, I tell her
like, when you take your little sister

out, it's like, you've got to realize
that's part of work because at some

point you wouldn't stay here if you
didn't have that as part of your job.

And so knowing what the things are
and what are the struggling moments

and what progress people want to
make is really, really important.

And to understand, we keep
trying to filter people because

they have the experience.

But the reality is what we really
want to do is find people who want

to actually lean deeply into the
area where we need the work and

that you're looking for people, what
people can do, not for what they did.

Right?

And so ultimately, and just
because I'm good at something

doesn't mean I'd like to do it.

Right.

That's the other thing that we have
to actually kind of figure into it.

So the book kind of outlines those
kinds of things in the last three

chapters are really about coaching.

And then basically from an
employment perspective, how do we

actually run, how do we think about
running a very different kind of

recruiting process than typically
how people do it, which is like,

let me get a bunch of resumes.

Let me write a job description.

And you start to realize job
descriptions are made up and resumes

are literally like a description of
a superhero and you end up trying to

picking on basically some made up job
description of what the work is, which

you really don't know what it is.

And, you know, you match it with
a superhero and next thing you

know, it's like, it doesn't work.

And you're like, why is this so bad?

And what most of the companies
have been innovating on is

how do I get more resumes?

How do I get more better jobs?

They're innovating all in the wrong space.

So that's kind of, and again,
like you said, I I've never

been in the space before.

I didn't really want to go into the
space, but when you ask founders, like

the top three things that if they could
wave a magic wand with and make it

disappear, talent and NHR is one of them.

They would really like to be a better,
and that's really why I wrote it.

And to be honest, that's why I recruited
people like Michael Horn and Ethan

Burstein, who are experts in that
area, but me coming from the outside

going like, this makes no sense.

Prateek Panda: I think that you said a
couple of very interesting things that

resonate strongly because right now I
am hiding for a role and uh, I've been

hiding for more than a decade, but, this
is the first time when I'm actually asking

one of the things that you mentioned.

Is I ask people that, Hey,
you're a product marketer.

There are certain things you have
to do, and you might be good at it.

Do you enjoy doing it?

What are the things that you
enjoy doing versus what are some

things that you are good at?

But because the job requires you to do

it.

Bob Moesta: What I would tell you is
I've been more forceful than that.

What are the things that give you energy?

You walk into the situation and you end
up with more energy than you started with.

Like, how does that happen?

And then where are the times where you
walk into a situation and literally,

you feel the life energy
being sucked out of your body.

Like the, the more you can be just
very, uh, and it's more about tell

me moments where that happens because
it's not just the work, it can be the

conditions, it can be the situation.

It can be context.

It can be the outcome is too great.

Like, like what are the things that
actually suck the energy out of

you is really important to know.

And so I think those are really good
questions to ask, but I would tell

you to be more aggressive on what
are those energy drivers and drains?

Because I felt like they'd give
me kind of half answers, but

I wouldn't get to the source.

You want to get to the
source and know the source.

And from what I'm hearing is
this is an ongoing process.

If you're a founder or a manager or
whatever as you do all of this, when

you hire the right person, but you
continue to have these conversations

to make sure that it still works.

Yeah.

And I think the thing is, at some point
there's, I will tell you, this is that

when the startup gets to a certain point,
you actually need different people.

There's people who you need to
create the business and then

people to help manage the business.

And usually the creative people who
create the business or build the

business, aren't they usually people.

So when you get to a point where you've
got a regular runway and now it's about

continuous improvement, as opposed to
basically creation of new features.

You just start to realize like, okay, I
got to have a different kind of person.

And so even the people who are the
startup people know, it's like,

it's time for me to go, because
this is not the work I need to do.

And so it doesn't become like, oh,
how do I get rid of this person?

It's more like, how do we go help you find
to do work that you really love to do?

Right.

Prateek Panda: That's amazing.

We talked a little bit about
asking the right questions.

And in this context, we were talking
about employers and employees, but

also applies so strongly to customers.

You mentioned that customers
often don't know or even lie

about what they really want.

So what are some techniques that founders
can use to sort of scratch below those

surface level answers and find out?

Bob Moesta: So the first thing is,
the process I call is unpacking.

And I think of three layers of language.

There's three kinds of language
that people talk at you with.

And the first thing is to realize
that most people listen with

more precision than the people
speaking the language to you.

So they'll say a word like easy and
you're like, Oh, it's all about easy.

And it's like, they're just saying easy.

Like they're, it's not that intentional
and you're taking it as very intentional.

So this is where you have to
start to realize like, You have

to actually start to mirror
their, their intention behind it.

Right.

And so there's the three layers of
the first layer is what I call the

Pablum layer, and it's kind of like,
so I have four children and they

all work in tech and when I catch
up with them, I'll say, how's work.

Right.

And they'll say, oh, it's good.

Like, that's Pablum, that's the
standard answer that you say that

literally gets you past that question
that literally says, I don't really

want to tell you what's really
going on, but like, it's good.

Right, and the question is, they
could say it's good with a pause

in it, or they could say, Oh,
it's good with no pause in it.

And that's a very different next question.

So you have to listen to not only
what they say, but how they say it.

The next question is usually
then a layer of what I call

the fantasy nightmare layer.

I'm like, Oh, it's good.

Tell me what, tell me something
that happened this week,

that was great about it.

And this is where they exaggerate
like, Oh my God, this happened.

It was so amazing.

And this happened and that happened.

And then ultimately the fact
is, or boy, this happened.

They go really negative on it, but
there's this middle layer that I call

the fantasy nightmare layer, which is
still nothing you need to respond to,

but you have to realize like they need
to go through it to get down to the

next layer, which is the causal layer.

And so you have to realize like, and
the causal layer is about what happened.

What physically have,
were you disrespected?

Were you excited because
there was a new opportunity?

Like what actually physically happened?

And so it's more like a criminal
interrogation, like Chris

Voss's book, Never Split the
Difference is awesome for this.

Right.

And it's about learning how
to actually mirror and match.

It's learning how to get the answer no.

So for example, one of the things
I'll say is the moment they say

yes, there's no other question.

But the moment they say no,
there's like, well, tell me more.

What do you mean?

Give me an example, right?

And so half the time I'm not trying
to get to the version of yes.

That I understand.

I'm trying to get to the version
of no, because they can keep going.

And when there's no more
no's, then ultimately the fact

is I understand everything.

And so that's really counterintuitive
because most people are getting to say

like, Oh, so it's this and this and this.

And they'll say, yes.

And what I'll do is I'll say,
no, it's this and that are those.

And they'll say, Oh no, that's not it.

And then they'll tell me more.

Prateek Panda: Hmm.

That's interesting because by design
of thought, a lot of founders that I've

worked with and I've done these mistakes
in the past as well, where you go in

Bob Moesta: all have.

We all have.

I mean, let's

Prateek Panda: You go in

Bob Moesta: I've only I've only learned
this because I couldn't do it before.

Prateek Panda: Yeah, we go in with these
things that we want to get validated.

And we're sort of unconsciously
looking for those yeses.

And we go back happy saying, Oh yeah, this
is, I've achieved some sort of validation.

Bob Moesta: One of the rules I talk
about for Jobs to be Done is this notion

of it's hypothesis building research.

All you're going to go in with is you
know that they bought your product.

You have no idea why.

You have no idea.

Like this is where somebody will
say, oh, I bought a new car.

I bought it 'cause I
got a great deal on it.

That's not why they bought a new car.

That is, it has a virtually very small
part to do with the new car is like, oh,

I had a repair that was six months ago.

That was literally $3,000.

And now I start to hear a new sound
and, oh, I'm driving 30 miles a

week, a day, one way to work and
I gotta be, have a more reliable.

That's why they're buying a car, but
they're saying they got a deal on it.

And that's why they bought a new car.

And that's just the lie.

They tell themselves.

Prateek Panda: Yeah, that's amazing.

You've given a few examples in your
Jobs to be Done framework, and one

of the companies you worked with was
Intercom, very popular in the SaaS space.

You mentioned that they were able to
sort of grow almost 5x in 18 months

by repositioning their product.

Do you remember a little
more anecdotes from

there?

Bob Moesta: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

it was actually, they grew 15
and they went from 5 million

to 75 million in 18 months.

Right.

And part of it was that they had
the belief that their product.

So the positioning of the product was,
and they built it found this premise

of having all the data in one place
as you are a startup back in the day.

You'd actually have like three or
four different kinds of solutions

and none of them talk to each other.

And so it was this aspect of trying
to get all the data in one place

and people were going to value more.

The fact that it was all in one
place, then the fact is that you had

a great set of just individual tools.

And so, they got to, you know, for
year one, three and a half million year

two, they were about 5 million, but
it was like, kind of like the growth

wasn't like in the same trajectory,
they're like, okay, we should kind of

look and see why people are hiring us.

Well, it turns out there were
five or four very, very different

reasons why people were buying it.

And it related back to kind of
like, Hey, I've got people coming to

the site, but they're not actually
converting, help me convert.

So it turns out it was like help me,
you know, basically convert people.

Another one was like, I don't have a
problem converting, but I have a problem

engaging, like having them come back
and knowing what to do and knowing

how to actually streamline the flow.

So the engagement was a real problem.

Another one was like, we're trying
to build out features and you had

product people buying it to say,
like, I need to know we're struggling

so I can build new feature sets.

So help me learn about where to
build the next set of features.

And then there was a group of people
that basically said, we use this

to manage our support tickets.

And it's like, wait, what we had
no idea what they were doing there.

And ultimately it turns out that there
was four, these four really different

jobs and job one, which was this
engagement one competed with HubSpot

and job four, which was helping me
with support competed with ZenDesk.

And so you started to realize like very,
very different kinds of combinations,

but ultimately they basically said,
instead of having, and they used to

sell all the different features under
one hat, but people were only using

it under one of the four situations.

And so what we did is we, they
broke it into, they called them,

uh, Packages to begin with.

And eventually they turned them into
four different products and said,

here's when you're struggling with these
things and you want these outcomes.

We can help you with that.

And all they really did was
then turn off feature sets to

basically subgroup the product.

And so they didn't really
build four products.

They actually just reduced the
main product to basically focus

on these four different use
cases, if you will, or the jobs.

And then ultimately the fact is it came
back to being able to advertise for it.

And it turns out that back in the
day, and it's changed now, but back

in the day, people were problem
aware, but they were solution unaware.

And so the cost of being able to talk
about CRM or talking about all these

different tools, but if you talked
about the problem, it was actually one

10th the price of the solution words.

And so we actually really won by
actually making people aware of the

struggling moment and describing the
struggling moment so clearly, like,

it's almost the fact of like, you
know, what I'm struggling with so much

better than I can even articulate,
you must have an answer for it.

And that's how they grew.

Yeah,

amazing.

Thank you so much for
sharing that in detail.

Bob, as we come closer to the end of
this conversation, I hate to say we're

coming to the end of the conversation,

all right.

Prateek Panda: You know, as we sign
off, for all the founders, especially

SaaS founders listening to this, what
are some top two or three things that

you would advise that they focus on
while they're building their product

and really finding new customers?

Bob Moesta: Yeah.

So the first thing I would tell
you is progress over perfection.

Like, I can't tell you enough that
most people look at, like, they'll

set a goal of what they have to hit.

And what you want to do is I want
you to focus more on basically where

you're coming from and did you make
progress in the last six weeks as

opposed to, did you hit your goal?

Because for me, I don't set many goals.

I set a direction and a
magnitude of where I want to go.

And then I take everything
into six week cycles.

And so it allows me, and to be
honest, every time I, let's say in

January, I'll write down, here's
where I want to go and I'll leave

it alone and I'll forget about it.

I almost always exceed all
my goals because I just worry

about the next six weeks.

And then I'm headed in the right
direction and I'm focused on making

the most progress with that six weeks.

Two is the fact is, is to basically
study your customer from their eyes,

what they see, what they hear, what
they feel and study the buying process.

How do they buy?

Because your sales process is not
the same as their buying process.

And you need to learn to ask them how do
they want to buy and what's the process

to buy, because that's the ultimate thing.

I wrote a book on this called Demand
Side Sales, realizing that we all

sell because at some point we're all
trying to help people make progress.

And so teachers sell the lesson
to the student, the student

still has to make the progress.

Doctors sell the rehab
program to the patients.

They still have to make the progress.

So ultimately, how do we understand how
people want to make progress and then

how do we get in their way to help them?

Those are the two big ones.

Prateek Panda: That's amazing, Bob.

Thank you so much for taking out
time and sharing all of these

Bob Moesta: Oh, no, this is my pleasure.

I measure my life by the way,
Clay Christianson, who's one of

my mentors wrote a book called
How Will You Measure Your Life?

And ultimately it's about
how many people I can help.

So it's not the size of my bank
account or the number of products

I've built or anything like that.

It's about literally the
number of people I help.

So I appreciate you like offering
to have me on and be able to talk

to people so I can actually, you
give me scale to be able to reach

my goal of helping a million people.

Prateek Panda: Thank you so much, Bob.

Bob Moesta: that.

Prateek Panda: It's amazing.

Once again, you've got the new
book coming out, Job Moves.

For everybody listening, if you want
to understand more about how to find

the right job, how to ask the right
questions, and even from an employer

perspective to really understand
what your employees go through.

Bob Moesta: Yeah.

So I wrote the book a lot around
employees, but now I have probably

10 companies that I'm helping with
just, so I see another book coming

around kind of the, the opposite side
of this and it's almost match.com.

How do we get both sides to understand
what each other wants and basically

figure out how to build alignment.

Prateek Panda: That's amazing.

Thanks again, bob

Bob Moesta: Yep.

Thank you.

Prateek Panda: And that
wraps up today's episode.

Before we sign off, I would like
to thank you for your support

and thanks for tuning in.

If you loved today's episode, then
don't forget to subscribe to this

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Be kind, be happy, challenge the norm.

I'll see you folks again for the next one.